No offense, but the moderators have some ability to narrow down identities. So if somebody is being a jerk under two names, they can kind of figure it out to some extent.
very true. so i dont think its any forums members place to accuse someone of using 2 identities in place of a mod… seein as they have the ability to actually know these things.
all things considered tho. i think red is actually crazy enough to argue with himself lol 
mutter :mad:
In my opinion no. What people seem to mean by internal is a certain kinesthetic awareness, that, IMO can be developed by Olympic weightlifters, gymnasts, dancers, baseball players, etc
You mean they DO develop kinesthetic awareness, atleast to be able to compete even semi professionally. Or am I the only one here who believs that CMA doesn’t hold the secret to unlocking “qi” 
JohnnyMnemonic, are yout alking to me? I can’t tell, but you’re bizarre speak leads me to believe you sir, are Happeh.
However, in case you really are just some guy trying to make a good impression by being an @ss with 4 posts - I posted for about two weeks under another screen name, about 3 years ago while I had some major decisions to make. Before and since then I have always and will always post under Red5angel. I don’t get banned and I feel no need to hide behind multiple screen names to make my points.
Now only to figure out if you are Ailek/Fupow or Taichibob/Spiraller/Happeh, or Volcano Admin/Xebs/Moremisfortune…
I know Chris M…and I agree with you 100%. Hence my use of “what people seem to mean…”
I know, I’m just teasing.
i believe that some athletes(not all) particularly at the olympic level, and the highest level of professional sports do develop some internal abilitities (sport specific). Imagine all your life practicing the same movements for hours a day? (sounds like internal arts) What seperates the most elite of athletes from the group just below them?
However since their focus is still on athletics ( which are still largely tied to muscular strength and ability) its not on a par with people who develop thier internal ability for a broader usage (health etc). In addition some of their athletic ( physical activities) are probably counter productive to maintaining their level of internalization.
I believe their are some real people with internal skill just very,very few and very far between. Maybe 5 % of the people who actually claim it in martial arts.
Considering that maybe 20% of the people who teach, or practice martial arts are as skilled as they claim, and internal arts are supposed to be a higher level of martial arts.
Think about it in everything there are a handful of people who are very good then there is everybody else.
Every teacher has a small handful of very good students then there is everybody else whether its a good school or a mcdojo.
Greetings..
It seems to me that “Internal Arts” incorporate a more holistic approach to Martial Arts.. from which some people derived an inclination toward a more health oriented practice, and some continue the intended martial lineage.. The call for internal fighters to step into the sport arena demonstrates a fundamental difference in the internal/external concept.. externalists need validation of their skills, internalists (of the martial lineage) generally do not hold their art out as a show or competition (of course there are exceptions).. hence, one of the reasons for the label internal, it is a personal quest and an internal endeavor.. while externalists proudly display their skills in sporting carnival-like events, internalists continue to observe and stragetize counter techniques to the displayed external skills.. i see no need to display counter techniques until it actually matters, on the streets.. again, the externalists ridicule the internal players regarding “unproven” techniques, as if the public display of sport-fighting is the only valid way of determining the usefulness of a technique.. it is not. There are internalists that train with characteristically similar intensity and with similar goals, we simply prefer to keep a low profile and not show all our skills.. Sun Tzu would note that if i can see your army i can strategize a victory, if you can’t see mine i have an advantage..
This is just one of many aspects that illustrate the differences..
Be well..
So that’s it everyone.
Look out for the secret hordes of internal fighters who are keeping it all to themselves.
Garbage!
Greetings..
SiuHung: It’s not “secret”, you could play too.. if you were of a mind to do so.. unfortunately there are no “hordes”, too few willing to train in that manner.. no one’s “keeping it to themselves”.. they just don’t make a spectacle of it.. and, the only “garbage” is closed-minded sarcastic responses such as this..
Be well..
Ok Bob, I got nothing against you personally. However, in my all my years of CMA I’ve easily met over one hundred internal players, mostly Tai Chi. Out of them, I can count on my hand the number who knew even a little about fighting and were willing to demonstrate thier knowledge. Of those few, all of them had a solid background in “lowly” external styles.
I do beleive that there are internal style practitioners out there that train to fight. I’m sure somewhere they exist. But, they are horrible underrepresented, and if they’re keeping to themselves and training silently, then they are doing thier respective fighting systems a huge disservice. So please, if there are internal fighters out there, come forth. Show the world to keep your skills alive and spread them. There are no secret fight technologies anymore, and it’s time to show the effectiveness of internal MARTIAL arts.
Greetings..
SiuHung:
Of those few, all of them had a solid background in “lowly” external styles.
Agreed.. it seems that, at some point, external styles leave the dedicated martial artist hungry for more.. and, internal martial arts satisfy that hunger.. and, please understand that i do not consider external styles “lowly”, my first 15 years were strictly external, rewarding and effective.. but, something was missing..
So please, if there are internal fighters out there, come forth. Show the world to keep your skills alive and spread them. There are no secret fight technologies anymore, and it’s time to show the effectiveness of internal MARTIAL arts.
It’s not about “secrets”, it’s just a preference.. the skills are alive, not overtly marketed or mass produced.. Taiji invites those inclined to seek its benefits.. and, it seems that those inclined are further inclined to keep a low profile.. Taiji will never have the McDojo syndrome, too few willing to immerse themselves into lifelong journey.. its really a question of priorities, do i train for me.. or, to prove something to others.. and, i’m in it for me..
Much of the skill developed Taiji (complemented in my instance with Qinna) cannot be utilized in standard competition.. joint manipulations and hyper-extensions, breaks, etc… and, its not that we perceive the techniques to be “too dangerous”.. no, it’s that if we show the techniques at anything less than full effectiveness the opponent claims it ineffective.. most of us are tired of locking someone up and demonstrating a technique, that, if executed fully could maim or kill, and by demonstrating equal measure of mercy offering the opponent a healthy alternative, from which it is likely they will formulate a counter.. or, show it at full effectiveness and they cry foul.. it’s a lose/lose.. and, often the equipment (both the opponent’s and the Taiji player’s) precludes effective techniques.. i am willing to cross hands with almost anyone having reasonable intent, but.. not as a public spectacle.. there’s plenty of that already..
I have no quarrel with most, however, i dislike those that can’t be civil, but it doesn’t rise to a quarrel or violence.. just a downgrading of the level of respect earned. At some level, “i” think CMA and all MA should be role models for a better society.. not a bunch of bickering bullies…
Be well..
You might not be asking the right people.
Stop being a bully and going to house-wife Taiji people training at the Y or your local yoga center. Go knock on Mr. CC Chens door and ask to play with his son … or even his daughter. Track down Mr. Novell Bell and his people, go ask them to play. Or, come to this weekend’s Throwdown I’m trying to organize and play with me.
Ray,
Sorry, I made atrip to NY last fall and won’t be making one again for some time. When I do, I’ll let you know. I like your spirit. I’ve heard of Mr. Bell, and I respect him for showing his hands. Mr. CC Chen’s family does fight…but I’ve met plenty of people who’ve studied under him who don’t know a thing about fighting. Also, I beleive that something was mentioned about some supplementary training for the Chen’s along the way…(you know, external stuff!)
Anyway, my source of angst regarding internal stems from the attitude. I have always been left with the impression that internal folks seem to think that thier stuff is somehow better. But there’s never explanations or demonstrations as to why and how. All there is, is talk of either health, or skills that no one seems to be willing to show. Isn’t that odd for martial arts?
I agree with you…
I see a lot of guys who talk about the superiority of Internal fighting but can’t fight. Others don’t even want to bring up fighting so they talk health and chi gung. These guys rarely look that healthy and what the hell are they doing (what I ask when I watch tape of their chi gung).
As for Mr. CC Chen’s school and students: I can’t speak of it. But I know where I train very few are actually interested in the fighting side of it, they are more into the health and fun side of things … they can defend themselves though.
But to be honest, take someone training where I train who is a hobbyist, of course he’ll get eaten up by even the guy who lives and breathes Tae Kwon Do.
No. 1: You have to have the fighting spirit/mind.
No. 2: You have to train realistically.
No.3 : your technique has to be good.
There is a difference between External and Internal … I have trained external martial arts for 20-some-odd years. For me, I didn’t have the confidence to really fight until meeting my master, who’s an internalist. But this just happened to be when the above 3 things came together for me.
The one thing I see that’s different is that internalists can stretch the age and weight gap a little more. My master is 64 and still fights the young, big guy. I’m 30, 187, and I’m scheduled to fight a 6’4" 260 on Sunday.
If you plan on lifting to get big and strong and have the attitude of “I’ll just be tough and keep throwing” … how do you beet a guy who has 80lbs on you and probbaly 8 inches in reach? You better be really tough or know something different. Because chances are he’s coming really strong too.
This is the reason I train internal. I don’t only want to talk $hit now. I want to talk $hit when I’m 60 … I don’t want to say, come fight one of my students. No, I want to say, come fight me.
I’m glad I have someone who has set this example and goal for me.
Ray,
I’ve gotta ask where Judo, BJJ, wrestling are on the map then, because I know some old guys that can tool people, and I know I’ve beaten guys that are much larger and stronger than me.
Perhaps the reality is that maybe good is good, and if you’re good enough, you’ll probably win… but all other things being equal, age matters?
Just something to consider.
My problem is the idea that you are studying something and attributing success in later years to that something. Perhaps it’s just the fact of being very good.
cause it’s worth repeating.
ok, so there is something I’d like to see disappear. If people want to insist there is a division between external and internal - the only difference I see is metaphysical - then let’s all atleast sit down and admit that so called internal arts do not allow really old men and really small people to overcome everything that is larger and stronger. Here are some truths in my experience:
Some old men are really tough, but they have the brittleness of age.
I’ve never been taken down by a women except voluntarily.
I’ve been taken down by smaller people.
I’ve been submitted by men and women of varying sizes (not a hobby, but the fighting thingy)
Skill can certainly overcome strength, but skill combined with strength are far superior to either of the other two alone.
When I studied “internal” I was one of the larger people in class, I massed way more muscle then just about everyone except two that I can think of. In all cases I never felt that those people had anything on me.
So in my opinion, I’d have to say that while an old guy might be able to pull of some serious moves if he’s been studying all his life, I think it has more to do with the fact that he has studied all his life and not what it was he was studying.
Oh yeah, and girls are weak (that ones for you Willow Sword.)
Funny how jiujitsu, judo, and sambo all utilize joint manipulations, hyperextensions, and breaks, and are able to use them at less than full effectiveness but still prevent them from being countered.
The reason for this is that in all of these arts, before one manipulates the joints, one establishes control of the body. Once one has done that, one can apply manipulations even in a slow and controlled manner, and still prevent the opponent from countering them.
If your tai-chi joint manipulations are unable to be applied at anything less than full effectiveness, it is because you are not controlling the body before you attack the joint - and this means that you are depending entirely on your speed in executing the technique vs your opponent’s speed in reaction to defend it. The minute you fight someone who’s just a little faster than you, your techniques are useless.
To put it more simply - if your style cannot be used in standard competition because your joint manipulations are ineffective if done at less than breakneck speed - your joint manipulations are worthless shit as far as technique goes.