To answer the original post…it is not a matter of style, but rather of teacher as to what range’s you fight in, and techniques that are found for each range. All the “internal” arts have throws and takedowns. Period. If you do not know it, either you teacher has not taught you, or he does not know.
“Gravity never lies, and the ground never misses.”
Cheers
Jake 
.
Jake just dropped a roofie in the “correct’s” drink, hauled it out of the bar and is hailing a cab… 
Sorry brothers :o ! Did not mean too. I am so ****ed tired of hearing Taiji and Xing Yi “players” claiming there is little Shuai and Na techniques in these arts :mad: If you do not see the throwing and locking (I would even venture to say 80% or more!) in your Taiji (regardless of style) you are blind, blind, blind! If I hear one more “expert” claim that Xing Yi is mainly a percussive art and involves little throwing, I am going to Heng Chuan his ass and bounce his melon on the pavement once or twice (only is needed; I am not a heathen :rolleyes: 
).
I feel sorry for some of the folks on these threads, because it seems that their are lots of people out there ignorant in Shuai & Na.
Please continue the conversation though, it was swell
Thanks for letting me rant,
Jake 
Greetings..
“Closed door students”, “disciples” or whatever method is used to determine who gets the “real stuff” is a bit like discrimination.. unless, of course, it is known up-front.. if new students are told of the hierarchy and the expectations to “get inside”, then they can make an informed decision about their teacher’s intentions.. I think it’s dishonorable to take a student’s money and not be sincere in the effort to teach them all they can absorb.. arbitrary exclusion from the “real stuff” should be clearly communicated to the hopeful student, and the reasons why as well.. As teachers, we are obligated to inform of flaws as well achievements, in that way the student can decide to make corrections or not, and when it’s clear that they don’t intend to meet the requirements to move ahead, we are obligated to terminate the relationship.. or, tell them they are welcome to continue contributing to the school but no advancement should be expected.. we are obligated to be honest with those that invest their time and money for our services..
As for grappling and Qinna, it is difficult not to see those elements in almost every posture, in almost every movement of Taiji.. if it isn’t apparent to someone, they simply don’t have “Martial Spirit”.. similarly, it is also apparent that each movement and posture opens or affects meridians and gates.. Taiji is a work of genius, offering such diversified life enhancing opportunities for the those with the vision to see it..
Be well…
I totally agree that Tai Chi has Shuai and Na component in it; but in my opinion it is not the most important part of Tai Chi systems. And if one over-concentrates on the Shuai Na techniques one misses out on the much much deeper level of the art.
Further more, after seeing systems like Tian Style Bagua where the Shuai Na techniques are so much more sophisticated, it is not difficult to see that although Tai Chi has Shuai Na techniques it is not the main aim.
Cheers,
John
Greetings..
Taiji’s locks and throws are no less sophisticated than other systems.. unfortunately, Taiji has been adopted by purely health oriented people due to the “appearance” of softness and gentle motion.. the deficiency is in the quality of teaching, not in the system..
Be well..
No doubt these things are in there … everything’s in there … the punching, locking, throwing … some kicking, but that’s just a side benefit.
The real question is, how many people can use it? How many can throw with their taiji? How many can fight with their taiji?
Being shown a car, watching someone drive a car, is different than hopping in and heading into town to pick up some milk.
This is why in the end these arts are personal. You go to the well for the formula – and hopefully the well is pure and deep – and then its up to you to drink and digest.
It isn’t the most important thing, it is just one more thing.
If you don’t have the T’ai Chi basics solid, forget it. You won’t have rooting to neutralise a throw, uprooting power to do the throws to other people, or the ability to set up the timing, coordination or positioning to even get close enough to someone to throw them. But this also applies to sparring, fencing, you name it.
So to answer Ray’s question: not very many. The training is arduous and painful, and most drop out, or (especially in the West) graduate themselves without actually learning it. Maybe a handful of Wu stylists in North America have the ability to use throws martially according to T’ai Chi principles, out of many hundreds of students. In Asia, it is a little better, maybe a couple of hundred out of a few thousand students.
Hello TaiChiBob,
Don’t get me wrong, I still believe Tai Chi is one of the most sophisticated fighting system ever developed. But what make Tai Chi powerful is not the locks and throws, although the locks and throw can be applied. Tai Chi specialises in the manipulation of Yi Qi, while some other arts may specialise in Shuai Na.
Cheers,
John
You don’t “see” throwing, locking, and groundfighting. You do them. And you do them against resisting opponents. If you are not doing this, then your system doesn’t “have” them… at least not in any functional sense.
Well, that pretty much sums it up.
Greetings..
imperialtaichi:
Tai Chi specialises in the manipulation of Yi Qi, while some other arts may specialise in Shuai Na.
Agreed.. also, Yi Qi is equally useful when focused on Shuai Na.. Taiji is not limited by form or application, only by the minds that perceive it..
Knifefighter: Before “doing” one must visualize (see) the application (training).. but, i agree that “seeing” does not equate to “doing”.. if someone’s training doesn’t include “doing”, they are training their imagination..
Be well..
Reality
The Reality is most fights end up in the clinch or takedown! If you arent training this within your internal art then i think you are missing a big part of Reality Training.
As Dr John mentioned it also serves a purpose for chi cultivation too, so i believe that internal arts are the most effective fighting and best health exercise ever.
FT
Well said. My personal experience is that if the Yi Qi is well trained, it can enhance virtually any martial arts, whether strikes and/or grappling Shuai Na. And when the mind is not in an abiding space (Takuan Soho and Yagyu Munenori) the form and applications becomes limitless.
The more freedom we have with our Tai Chi, the less we are bound by rules and form, the more effective it becomes.
Cheers,
John
So true. It’s more like a rumble than a Jet Li clip. Often multiple attacks trying to take down a single person. In cases like this I found the 3 most useful too to be:
Effective grappling: so one can use one of the attackers as a shield or weapon
Stay up-right: once fallen on the ground, even if you manage to take one of the attackers down, the rest of the attackers simply come over and turn it into a soccer match with your head as the ball.
and the last, most important strategy, the top strategy of the “36 Strategies”, the fail proof fool proof strategy…
Cheers,
John