I have heard so many coments about “Real Tai Chi” and was just wondering if anyone could give me a definition of real tai chi.
It seems everyone thinks that they have the real deal. What is it? Just doing the form? Push hands exercises? Free style push hands? Do you ever teach punching and kicking drills up to speed like Mainstream kung fu styles?
If you never drill the techniqes up to speed how will you apply them in a real self defense situation?
Most of what I teach is the form and some basic push hands drills. Many of the people who do it are older and do not care about the fighting anyway. To be honest, they have a hard time just with the form.
I had one young man who wanted to learn to fight with the tai chi. So I broke it down just as I do my kung fu style into drills using punches, kicks, two person drills, push hands drills and throws. After about a year I threw him into the san shou class to fight. He did very well against the kung fu students. Was it Tai Chi or just san shou? Not sure. His movement was a little different than the others but at least he did fight.
Has anyone ever been abe to see CC Chen’s daughter or other students fight san shou? Did it look like just another san shou fight or did they display thier style by the techniques they used? Just wondering. They are the only school I know of the does that type of fighting.
Has anyone ever been abe to see CC Chen’s daughter or other students fight san shou? Did it look like just another san shou fight or did they display thier style by the techniques they used? Just wondering. They are the only school I know of the does that type of fighting.
I have seen both Tiffany and Max fight and i’ve trained with WCC Chen.. Tiffany, moreso than Max, has elements of Taiji in her approach to fighting.. but, at combat speed Taiji is difficult to discern by the untrained eye.. Max is quick and smart (and his arms are unnaturally long).. it is in the training environment that you see the development of Taiji skill into true combat skill..
Been focusing on Taiji. All I can say is that it’s teaching me to coordinate my body better … get power all the way from the foot and ankle up through the knee, into the waist, hips, shoulder, elbow, wrist, fingers.
Now I see why you train it slow, so you can feel each part. I train it like I train everything else, walk back and forth focusing on getting a good drive off the leg, hanging time, feel the connections. I learned not to tense the arm, that it won’t increase the mass only slow it down. So I go back and forth doing pong (sp?).
My master hasn’t taught me the form, just breaks out sections, shows me the idea, the power, and how to train it. Then we train it.
As for fighting, I add everything I learn into my fighting and take it with me. What part is taiji, what part is Hsing-I, Ba Gua. It’s hard to say from looking on the outside. But when I’m using rib and a certain ****ing power in the clinch, I learned that from Hsing-I. When I use wave punching, hitting from relaxation, I learned that from Taiji.
Doesn’t matter what it is or how it looks to someone else. When you beat them, then you have the right to say what it is.
I’m definitely happy with it. It fits my personality and I know I’m becoming a better martial artists, and person, as the days go by. The next few months are going to be big for me, with some big fights I want to participate it. But then again, I guess any fight you commit to is big:)
the ability to understand and demonstrate what empty and full mean how open and close work. These are things that can be used martially but are not martial in themselves.
If one is seeking the end result seeks to make it into something they feel works its called missing by an inch is just as much as a thousand miles. Unless one is very clear its quite hard and requires a good teacher or guide to help you find taiji in yourself.
ah but it does matter. Read some historical accounts of the yang family before saying this, or some of the other taiji masters, from other taiji family styles.
They were very careful to show that what they did was very different from what everyone else was doing at the time. Had they used the same things that others used only with more speed and strength no one would really have thought much of it
You can practice the individual moves as two person practice if you looking for drills. There are eight basic hand techniques and five basic stepping methods. I suppose “real” tai chi are those 13 basic forms.
There are very few people alive that i consider sufficiently authoritative as to define “real Taiji”.. and, i haven’t seen any of them post here..
I don’t think Taiji is confined by descriptions and words.. i think it is revealed through practice and guidance by someone who demonstrates many of the characteristics described in the “Classics”… Sometimes, i think that even a good teacher may not “have it”, but is capable of guiding others “to it”…
It is a teacher’s best effort to empower their students beyond the teacher’s level..
I know how Taiji has been revealed to me, and i believe it is real.. but, i have seen it revealed to others differently, and it was still real.. we know its authenticity when we cross-hands.. there are few, if any, that can express observably “real” Taiji through forms..
Taiji can be expressed through the way one lives their life.. but it is like a tire uninflated.. the life lived in Taiji fashion would be observably impressive.. except for its functionality.. then, when appropriate conditions are available, the one living the Taiji life might cross hands with another for sport, or play, or.. real.. Then, we see how much air the tire can hold, we can tell if it’s functional.. Then, at its highest potential, even the crossing of hands is unavailable because the Taiji player neutralized the problem before it got that far.. “real Taiji”.. wins the battle before it’s fought..
So, how do we tell? We experience it, and, somehow we just “know”.. we can deceive ourselves with so many opinions of others, but.. within each of us, when we feel it and experience it, we “know” it…
These comments are well said! I appreciate your opinion. Of course many would disagree.
Certainly many people have fantasy ideas about Tai Chi, but this also occurs within other MA as well, including MMA. Many MMA consider it the be all and end all of MA. It isn’t!! It applies itself to a fixed context. Any MA that applies itself to a fixed context will be found to be deficient at times when applied to real world encounters. This is because the real world has innumerable, unpredictable contexts that occur.
I have a good friend who is at a grand-master skill level in IPSKA, an international combat shooting organization. He has been in the military, is presently in law enforcement, has written and had published numerous combat shooting articles in gun magazines and has taught gun tactics and safety. He is good at what he does. Put him in a specific context or an environment conducive to his skills and he will blow 15 holes in any MMAist before the MMAist could get close enough to harm him. Combat shooting is his context. Change the context to favor a MMA and my friend will get his head caved in. If 3 guys hide in the bushes or in a dark room with swords and jump a MMAist the context is within their favor and the MMA will have his skills challenged to their limits just to survive.
Life occurs according to varying contexts. Humans find personal fulfillment in pursuing activities that have value to them within the contexts they prefer. Most Tai Chi practitioners do not train to be heroes in the octagon! Their purposes and motivations are generally different than those who prefer a more hard and physical venue to display and test their skills. This does not make their pursuit of less value, only of different value.
Keep in mind that those who compete, train to win! Within this context, for most, they either win or lose. Those who train to defend themselves, train to survive! If they survive, they win! Surviving within this context does not require the defeat of an opponent as it does within the context of a MMA bout. It only requires maintaining ones safety. The purpose and contexts of the two perspectives are different and cannot be reasonably contrasted in a negative manner. It is comparing apples to oranges.
Some individuals, like Ray Pina, try to combine Tai Chi principles within their MMA experience and seem to find value and success within their experience. There is a real world martial application to Tai Chi and there are historical references to its successful usage. The fact an individual cannot find any value from their own perspective does not necessitate its non-existence.
So many words, so little demonstration, so few concrete names of who these real teachers are.
And, the same can be said of this quote.. words!! Where is “neilhytholt”, who are you.. what are your credentials.. where is your demonstration?
Real teachers i have trained with: W.C.C.Chen; Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming; Wei Lun Huang; Li En Jiu; David Chin; and others… Demonstrations? Available upon request..
Honestly, I’ve already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.
Honestly, have you, really? I doubt that you have made any real inquiries, made any real journies.. if you haven’t crossed hands with the teachers i have named your search is flawed. Maturity and perseverance are useful virtues.
I know what you are saying, trust me, my view on Tai Chi in the past was pretty low, that is, until I met my current teacher.
From my limited experience, ‘real’ Tai Chi is very difficult to be ‘seen’, it has to be ‘experience’, ‘feel’. Until my current teacher ‘demonstrated’ on me, I didn’t believe it either.
And to compare any practioners in any MA to folks in MMA is like comparing apples to oranges. I will just use myself as an example, IF I am involve in a situation that requires my martial arts training. The opening shot from me will be going for the eyes, throat or groin(Not saying I will be successful), failing that, my next target would be the knees and ankles and looking for ways step on/kick to break them. I doubt many MMA folks spends much time training to protect those areas, since its against the rules that they are training for to strike those areas (eyes, throat and groin).
Yeah, I don’t have any credentials. I am a loser. But I’m not claiming to be anything great or have anything great.
It’s just that I studied CMA for a couple of years. Thought that I was bad-ass because I studied the claw the eyes, break the neck, etc. Then I got myself all beat up by boxers!!!
Anyway, my point kindof isn’t that taiji sucks or anything, just that if you aren’t testing your skills, you probably don’t have any.
Neil: Same story.. i got schooled by a USMC boxer about 25 years ago.. he took my best kick to the torso without even flinching.. boxers condition their torsos well.. (a lesson i haven’t forgotten)..
About 17 years ago i was introduced to Taiji as a way to recover from a slipped disc (L4-5 of all places).. for the first five years i believed the hype, then was schooled again by Muay Thai.. since then, i have been diligent in my pursuit of Taiji excellence (not that i’m there, just diligent)..
Don’t be too quick to judge, there are quite a few out there that test Taiji regularly and with gusto.. I test Taiji and myself as often as i can.. WCC Chen’s students are very well trained and capable Taiji fighters.. David Chin’s student Chris Heintzman is a regular Cage winner with great Taiji skills.. There’s a lot more going on than most people are aware of..