Exploding the Myth of the So-called Internal martial arts?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

Today in the Chinese internal martial arts, there seem to me a lot of individuals that are willing to believe in anything. No matter if the storys they were told is false.

Today I feel most of the So-called internal martial arts is a big myth. A individual who wants to learn how to fight, in my own personal opinion should seek out westen boxing, Karate, judo,Chinese san shou, Hang Gar, wing chun or some form of freestyle combat training.

Because so far I see these methods are the only ones right now, where people are sparring with some form of light or full-contact unrehearse.

Because today in the world of the so called Chinese internal martial arts. There are not many indviiduals that can apply what they claim. Many internal practitioners don’t even do sparring. Forms is these people way of seeking the truth in combat. Even today in the motherland (China) where these internal arts are said to come from. There are few people that can apply real techniques from these so called internal systems in a unrehearse situation.

Today the so-called Chinese internal martial arts is taking over by fakes and unskilled individuals that can’t utilize the art. To hide their shortcoming in these known fighting systems, they talk of energy theory and metaphysical methods, so that they don’t have to demonstrate, and if they do dispaly techniques from the style they practice. Most of the time its going to be rehearse, this way, they know your attack is coming. (Easy to stop an attack when you ready for it, and can see it coming.) FIX SITUATION.

Then you have individuals on the internal that post their so-called fighting Knowledge on the internet, telling the whole world, how great their Sifu fighting method is. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you post Who you are, and not hide behind fake internet names.

Individuals that hide behind fake names, most of the time don’t have any real martial art experience anyway. These kind of people are always acting like their knowledgeable, but in fact these individuals that hide behind fake names and post on the internet, are actual unskilled and inexperienced. They are truly lost individuals, that don’t know themselves. One must never be afraid to evaluate new information and accept it if it is proven to be true.

The bottom line is, people that post and hide behind fake names fear instability, but this is also how people react in the internal martial arts, FEAR!!

Most People today that practice the internal martial art fear instability, therefore it is natural for them to resist the destruction of their old belief system (endless form training) until they have an aceptable belief system to replace the old.

Its just time for some people to open their eyes in my opinion. The so-called internal martial arts, are said to be killing arts, if thats true , then how come today there are very few individuals that can apply these so-called fighting systems in a unrehearse situation. No matter the skill level.

Now some of you may say, well the Chinese have a historical survey, and many books that disscuss some of the most famous internal masters beating people, utilizing their great internal fighting skills.

And my reply to you would be, that most of these storys are just storys past from one Chinese person to the next. Most internal martial arts, have several storys, some of them, to far out to be true.

Two hundred years ago, Napoleon Bonaparte made a very important statement. He stressed the fact that, history is a lie agreed upon. We must understand that the stores and historical facts have changed to suit the purposrs of the dominating cullture. (think about!)

Take a big real look inside the so- called internal martial arts, and tell me what you see more of today?

TRUTH OR MYTH?

I myself, personal see people that practice the internal Chinese internal martial arts living a myth most of the time.

If nothing change soon, the internal will be, just that internal. (Playing endless forms by yourself.) Now thats internal for your ass.

Peace out.

BlackTaoist
(Lao Qiang)

2

Ahh! My training is a lie!! :wink:

MA in the U.S. sucks. Not that there aren’t any good schools or teachers, Lord knows there are many very talented people out there practicing and instructing today, but there are a lot of screwballs and snake oil peddlers. That’s for sure.

My question is, why limit the accusations to the “internal” arts? In my experience, BT’s comments apply across the board.

We’ve got phoney kickboxing studios in my town. I can’t believe they bill that glorified aerobics class as self defense. We’ve got karate and ken(m)po dojos full of 13 year old “black belts” that would do more harm to themselves than good if they tried to apply their “art” in a fight. Mind you that goes double if they employ their deadly nunchaku. Even the all powerful :wink: bjj schools are slowly drowning in a sea of frauds and mediocre experts.

What’s a guy to do? Until lawsuits are abolished and kungfu challenge matches are legalized (har har) the charlitains will always outnumber the true fighters. And they will always have students, because in our society Marketing Fu is king.

Don’t worry about the other guy, because if he wants to waste his money and time, that’s his business. Find a teacher and a system you believe in, and stick with it. Train hard. Be happy. :slight_smile:

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I think the key point that you are hitting on is that martial arts are a “practical” art. You can only learn it by practicing it. Forms have their place in in learning martial arts. But they are only one tool in the training regimine.. They are a convenient way to organize and pass on information and techniques but they say nothing about whether the practioner can actually apply that information.

From a scientific perspective forms are the theory and combat is the lab. Unfortunately, most people spend most of there time studying the theory without ever testing it in the lab. The result is is that the theory (form) can become abstract and disconnected from actual usefullness. Gross errors gradually work there way into the forms because there is nothing weeding them out.

In addition, people rely on outdated and scientifically innaccurate terminology to describe techniques and martial theories to lend more credibility to their knowledge base. For example, the metaphysical concept of “chi” as it applies to martial arts is not really a useful term. Terminology reflects the reigning paradigm of the time in which the art was created. We do not live in ancient China anymore. It would be much more useful to describe techniques and theories in the internal arts based on neurological, anatomical and biomechanical knowledge.

4

Agree!!!

I agree with what you have said.

Unless the person teaching you can fight/know how to kill how can you expect to learn how to fight. If all you’re doing is forms and not all out fighting you got nothing.

People talk about having internal strike but only those that train, no BS, will ever see that 1" power. Sad to see all them rainbow chi people polute what once was great.

Solid principles, empty hand, weapons, health. IMA has it all.

Too bad there are so many fakes out there.

5

blah blah blah…I’ve never seen you fight. Stop stroking yourself on this forum…do you have anything to offer besides telling us how bad you are? Didn’t think so. Want to make a name for yourself? Do something instead of talking about it

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Yo, man I’m not going fight with you, because only the talkers get upset at what I post. You are always posting like you are some great Tai Chi fighter, tell you what. You are not far from New York. Your in New Jersey as a matter of fact. If you are so upset at me, and think I’m so- called stroking myself, why don’t you just come shut me up.

Its not hard at all, I’m willing to meet up with you and see what you got . Because I bet my money you don’t have much.

By the way, I don’t need to be stroking myself, I have to many woman.

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Also I never said I was the badest fighter in the world, I be a fool to think that. People like you (no Profile) are always puting words in my mouth or always claiming I 'm making statements of I’m the badest fighter, because people like you have no other way to come at me.

This is the whole point my Thread, people like you are lost, hiding behind a fake name, acting like you are giving knowledge to others up here on KFO, when in fact you are not man enough to let people know who you are.

Before you try to offer knowledge or give criticism, you first should be real with who you are, hiding behind fake internet names show and prove how fake you are.

What I have to offer is my true veiwpoints on internal martial arts as I see it today, I not hiding behind a fake internet name as many up here are. My adress is out to all the world to see, so anyone can visit my ass. What do you have to offer then post coming from the unknown.

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BT,

What you’re saying is very true and it gets more so everyday. Most systems are becoming muddled or lost over time, few are crystallizing into purer forms and even fewer choose to grow or even challenge themselves anymore. Your earlier comments on the teachers in China who were nothing more than form performers, shows us that it’s not just a local thing.

But I don’t think exposing frauds or challenging fakes helps any. They actually benefit from the attention, it’s likened to a form of free advertising. There will always be poor martial artists, fake ones and greedy ones. There won’t always be good, honest and legitimate teachers. As a community we need to support the legit Masters just as much or even more than we need to chastise the posers.

I see all the martial waste on the web and in the yellow pages and it makes me appreciate my Master and what he tries to do in today’s world. There will always be fakes to contend with but there won’t always be Masters like Wang, Li, Bond and Chen to support.

As a promoter and tournament fighter you have seen firsthand the value of taking ones skills public to test them. If enough people felt this way, there would be less room for any other kind of martial artist, internal or other.

Anyway, those were my thoughts at 3 a.m.

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Personally, I don’t think that the percentage of good, bad & fake hasn’
changed that much.

People must also realise that History only records the People that stood out or made a name for themselves.
How many Students of YLC have been recorded, only the good ones within the palace what about those that were taught outside and others that failed to meet the mark.

How many people for example learned Chen Family boxing?

The same counts for every style and every instructor past, present and future.

While I agree to a certain degree with BT, at the same time we shouldn’t be blinded to the fact that history and historical accounts are not an accurate presentation of what life and MA was than.

Many MA I noticed tend to over-glorify the past and exploits of old and thus look down on the modern MA scene.
There are good Masters out there, but as always they are few.

OTOH, how many Masters of old studied a few styles and than become good in only one, history often does not record the other Instructors and styles that he learned.

One thing I learned in my 1st History lesson is that Historical records are either written by the winning party or been agreed upon by outsiders to the actual events.
Or as in many cases History was recorded according to the Person that paid the Historian the most or had the most influence

As for testing skills today … have fun finding a good place and environment to do so in a realistic setting.

Pity we can’t escort Caravans like Chen Wang Ting did or defend our Villages against Invaders and robbers.

Than we also have to consider that most styles/systems were developed and perfected during peace times.

Times have changed and so must the MA in order not to become outdated or become extinct.
Maybe the future lies only in competitions or Sports similar as to what has happened to many western forms of combat.

Having a romantic view of MA is nice, but reality must also prevail.
Myths can work and be used both ways

Like the myth that Masters of old were willing to fight and kill people at the drop of a Head, guess the law-enforcements/legal system of that time might have a few things to say to those guys.

From what I read only soldiers and the upper class was ofen allowed to carry weapons, in most places at times any form of duels and fighting were forbidden.

Never mind that their own characters and opinions of Family and surrounding people.

I am sure that they only fought when it was absolutely neccessary and unavoidable. Kinda like us today.

Just my viewpoint and, yes, I am sure that it will ruffle a few Feathers.

Cheers.

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I dont practice yet, but i wish to do so. It is quite logical and expected that a big part of the whole may not be as it should be, but that doesnt allow us to reject a whole category.
There is an old kung fu saying: “Learn respect for your parents, learn respect for your teachers and seniors, learn kindness, learn righteousness, and then learn Kung Fu”. Although Kung Fu ( Hung Gar and Wing Chun that you reffer to) is a martial art, it is something more as well. It is not just the way of “learning how to kill”. So, in my opinion, apart from training your body in order to kill you should also train in kindness as well.

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Re: Exploding the Myth of the So-called Internal martial arts?

I absolutely agree with what BT says: “people that practice the internal Chinese internal martial arts [are]living a myth most of the time.”

But the thing is, this is true for ALL martial arts (including boxing), and this is true even in legit Chinese MA schools where the teacher has real skills. It’s human nature for a percentage of people to be lazy or confused or both. But BT, you really get worked up about it!

So basically I think what you are saying is true – except when it isn’t. I mean, it’s a little wierd for a guy who has searched for the best internal artist in NY to say that the internal arts aren’t worth studying. Right? So we gotta chuckle a little when you say that.

I also had to chuckle a little when you said “The bottom line is, people that post and hide behind fake names fear instability, but this is also how people react in the internal martial arts, FEAR!!” – and then signed with two nicknames: BlackTaoist and Lao Qiang! I mean that’s a little humorous, too.

So BT, I want to say I >totally< respect your knowledge and insights. If I was moving to NYC I’d be asking you where I should train – which is like asking someone a matter of live and death.
But I also gotta chuckle sometimes because you get worked up over stupid people. Man, there’s always going to be stupid people! And even if the stupid people are forced to go to only legitimate schools, a lot of them are going to be too lazy to train for real!

-crumble
Jamie Shart
Chicago, USA

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I understand where BT is coming from…

Until his untimely passing, I was a student of Dr. Fred Wu. The man was the most knowledgeable internalist I have ever personally met. After his passing I continued to train with his senior Bagua student.

I am currently on hiatus while I apply to graduate school, but one of my consistent problems in training has been that very few of my fellow internal students are even interested in sparring.

So, the problem runs even deeper than just bad teachers. There are plenty of good teachers with students who don’t see the necessity or utility of sparring. Perhaps they are stuck on this myth that by endlessly doing internal forms they will become an enlightened warrior, who is unstoppable in combat.

These kinds of delusions are a byproduct of the myths surrounding the history of our arts, and could be the greatest threat to preserving them as viable combatives.

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I am someone who aspires to the internal. I come from a fighting external background, so studying external methods to learn how to fight is a fait accompli. I study internal arts to refine my understanding and for self-improvement. I vote for sparring as part of ANY internal curriculum.

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Greetings..

My name is Bob Waers, i live and train/teach in Orlando, Florida.. i have just recently left the Wah Lum Temple after 12 years of training directly under Grandmaster Chan Pui due to internal political problems (Sifu/Simo issues).. i now teach Tai Chi/Chin Na at my own “Three Harmony” (body, mind and spirit) School. You may contact me through this forum or at TzuJanLi@aol.com. Nothing hidden here.

Tai Chi is a valid fighting art.. Time, evidence and testimony overwhelm the cries of those unable to grasp its true depths.. Yet, it is so much more, it is a way of life.. self-defense being only one of its assetts…

I do not claim to be a world-class “fighter”, nor do i believe that i am.. but, i am comfortable in conflict situations. i have my fair share of trophies and medals but, like most people i know that the proof is in the streets.. i occasionally assist a couple of friends that are bouncers (on high volume nights or when controversial bands are playing) and have found that my Tai Chi (i include Chin Na as a supplement) skills are much more effective than my external training.

I am curious as to why people that believe Tai Chi is not a valid fighting art continue to visit these forums and assault those of us that know, from experience, that it is. Wouldn’t their time be better spent with others that find their strength from external arts? Or, perhaps, they simply have a deficient need stir-up trouble or incite conflict. Those that sing their songs of fake or fraudulent Tai Chi claims should sing in Chen Villiage, or at any number of valid schools here in the US.. but, here, on this board.. its just laughable.. to support your own system is appropriate, to belittle others is without honor..

Just another perspective.. be well, train hard, and.. act responsibly..

15

TaiChiBob,

I don’t think anyone is actually arguing that Tai Chi is not a viable combative art, we are simply discussing one of the major threats to a viable future for the internals as viable fighting arts.

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Dwid

Greetings..

I hope you are correct.. i, personally, devote one of my 1.5 hour classes per week to teaching application and free-sparring with my partners’ JKD and Muay Thai students.. we each learn much from the others’ perspectives.. (to be honest we only spar with the external students for +/- 0.5hrs per week) the other hour is spent refining the application.

Yes, I agree, there is too much “Fluff” being introduced into the art.. too few instructors that are capable of teaching the fullness, including applications, of the art.. but, i sense that the application stays with the art.. only our awarenesses wax and wane..

Thank you for responding and asserting the validity of the art.. <bows>

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I have to say BT is confusing Internal Arts with all Martial Arts. The schools with little or nothing to offer constitute 95% of the marketplace in my opinion.

Problem is that the one’s that survive tend to be the best marketers. So be it.

The real problem is that it is very difficult to figure out who has something to offer until you have trained with them. Maybe if you have trained some real good MA’s you know what questions to ask to make it easier.

BT, don’t limit yourself. I train a Southern Chinese Internal that most people haven’t heard of. We spar at least once a week. We learn practical applications and techniques. We work forms. We move slow. We move fast. We Ch’i Kung. We have herblore.

My point is that if you have decided that Internal is a myth or that it is ineffective, then it will always be so for you. Open your mind to the possibilities and you may find you were mistaken.

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http://www.wutangcenter.com/bagua1.html

Good article, discusses how there is nothing mystical about the internal arts, etc.

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To clarify…I don’t think I’m wasting my time on nei jia training.

I do believe in the results of this training, as I have witnessed it.

I don’t care how bad things are with other schools or what false claims are being made, thats the bad karma on the peson doing it and I’m not about to carry their luggage.

Believing in your training is essential to success.

And btw, whats up with the attack on internal arts in the first post and the ad for an internal clinic in the second, Novell?
:confused:

20

Hello Bob,

This is Mike an old student of yours and Master Chan’s at Wah Lum. It’s great to here that you are teaching on your own. When I was at Wah Lum I was fortunate to have you their to teach me push hands. It really kept me going. The tai chi forms were nice, but the were empty without push hand training.

Doing forms without ever coming in contact with another never gives you a chance truly understand what it means to eb and flow with the forces you meet. How can you gain sensitivity without putting yourself in a situation that puts it to the test?

I glad to hear that your class does spar. Do you teach tai chi to the muay tai and jkd students? If so, how has been their attitude on the usefulness of an internal style?

I would like to come by your school and reaquaint myself. Where are you located and can I come by this Saturday?