Do they really think that practicing ‘Internal’ forms will automaticly give them martial abilities?
Do they really believe themselves too deadly to spar-- or are they simply delusional?
I think I understand what you mean by chi-hugger,
what is a butt tucker ?
it comes down to the individual,
generaly the answer is no and,i hope not.
it`s all relative,we all can be delusional,
chi-hugger? butt-tucker?
never heard of that.
Could you explain a bit more?
Sum Guye
“Do they really think that practicing ‘Internal’ forms will automaticly give them martial abilities?”
- No, most of us are pretty aware there is a big difference between practicing forms and applying movement under preasure and against a determined opponent. There are of course many schools that only teach the health and energy aspects but the systems are orginaly combat orientated. There are still a few around who know how to apply form to fighting.
“Do they really believe themselves too deadly to spar-- or are they simply delusional?”
- Yes im much to deadly to spar everytime i have tried my opponent drops dead at the site of me…
Actualy its in a funny way easyer to spar using internal arts than external ones. Due to the lack of force on force you dont have so much impact in defence and its not as stop start.
Ive found that external arts are often designed around how to do damage where as internal forms are designed around how to nulify force. They both have each others aspects but the focuss is different.
In Hung Ga i learn to break tear and distroy, in Bagua and Tai Chi i learn to ward off absorb and compact expand.
As a guess…
Chi Huggers - Tree Huggers - he is saying we love chi
But tuckers - most internal arts curve the lower spine inwards which if done in an exagerated manner would look like you where tucking in your but.
Dont worry about us we are just a bunch of nutcases who practice silly pointless dances in the hope of tricking our opponents into thinking we are insane and leaving us alone.
If that fails i just switch to matrix style and make time slow down to a stand still before shooting my chi and blowing sh!t up.
You should come try to its great fun:D
Do they really think that practicing martial forms will automatically give them internal abilities?
Do they really believe that sparing any one and every one that they will finely release that inner fear?
I think these are very different ideas and roads to travel, one dose not always confer anything to the other. In fact in some instances I truly think it leads in the opposite direction.
It’s called internal because it works off an inner awareness. If the total focus of your practice is to over come and conquer, I really don’t see how any internal practice can grow in this environment.
IMHO both extremes miss the point and will not lead to any type of true internal skill. I feel the practice starts and ends with the premises of : use the mind and not use force.
In the beginning I feel it is extremely important to adopt this idea. Later when your practice is truly internal (the inside moves the outside) it is still very important to keep this idea for further development.
the “tree-hugging” exercise can be as easily refered to as “Chi-hugging”.. “Butt-tucking” just sounds wrong.. but, as a reference to opening the Ming Men it suffices..
I like to think of Chi as the most refined fuel available.. and when i go to the race track (competition).. i would rather burn the fuel in a 2002 Porsche Turbo than a 1967 VW Beetle.. same with our bodies, we can refine the chi to great levels but, if the vehicle is not trained and maintained we’re just racing in a VW..
As the other posters seem to be saying, its about balance.. a great story from my past… a friend from my younger days inherited a mini-hydroplane (racing boat), but no motor.. he and his father bought and modified a magnificent outboard motor.. on the test-rack it almost shook the place apart, it was a really powerful motor.. so, on that special day we all went to Lake Fairview set the boat in the water, lowered the motor down with a lift, hooked up all the lines, and.. as we freed the motor from the lift sling.. we watched in horror as the nose of the boat pointed skyward and the motor (grossly too large) slowly pulled the little boat to the bottom… lots of Chi/nothing to express it with..
Anything done to extreme in one direction will suffer in another. Balance is the key, we are not fragmented beings.. train all aspects of “who you are”..
i have seen a 150 lb tai master from guangzhou train some night club bouncers in the U.S. these bouncers were from 220 to 250 lb lein bouncers. but the bouncers all got bounced around. the harder and heavier they are the harder they hit the ground.
your best western scenrio is to also watch a aikido master. these guys like to bounce people off the floor.
feeling the pain is believing. talk is worthless or shield for the not so true master. a good master will should from a light feel to a heavy throw.
Internal arts will give you good body alignment and power based on your skeleto structure, regardless. If you can train your body to fight while taking advantage of the natural power in your body, then you can use internal skills to have better martial power. Tucking the butt helps. Keeping the elblows down helps. Having intention to go through your opponent, also helps. No tricks here, just plain physics. Does this seem mysterious?
Internal arts do spar. Ask Tadzio.
CD Lee
What you have just said is all true, but is not the complete explanantion of what Internal Martial does as far as fighting is concerned. Issuing various Jin’s to attack and cause damage without the conventional idea of body dynamics and physics didn’t come into your explanantion. My Taiji Master literally rendered me unconscious once softly placing his palm on my chest and issuing energy, and practically no physical movement. This does not seem to be explained too well by body dynamics does it?
in the words of the top living master in my lineage
“Not to hit is not to teach”
what?
TaiChiBob
Junior Member
Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 12
the “tree-hugging” exercise can be as easily refered to as “Chi-hugging”.. “Butt-tucking” just sounds wrong.. but, as a reference to opening the Ming Men it suffices..
I like to think of Chi as the most refined fuel available.. and when i go to the race track (competition).. i would rather burn the fuel in a 2002 Porsche Turbo than a 1967 VW Beetle.. same with our bodies, we can refine the chi to great levels but, if the vehicle is not trained and maintained we’re just racing in a VW..
As the other posters seem to be saying, its about balance.. a great story from my past… a friend from my younger days inherited a mini-hydroplane (racing boat), but no motor.. he and his father bought and modified a magnificent outboard motor.. on the test-rack it almost shook the place apart, it was a really powerful motor.. so, on that special day we all went to Lake Fairview set the boat in the water, lowered the motor down with a lift, hooked up all the lines, and.. as we freed the motor from the lift sling.. we watched in horror as the nose of the boat pointed skyward and the motor (grossly too large) slowly pulled the little boat to the bottom… lots of Chi/nothing to express it with..
Anything done to extreme in one direction will suffer in another. Balance is the key, we are not fragmented beings.. train all aspects of “who you are”..
TaiChiBob.. “the teacher that is not also a student is neither”
Focus…Focus on the question at hand
Kaitain
Do you study under Master John Ding by any chance?
Go find a LEGIT internal player and find out!
My experience, anyone learning simply from form is learning form, not function. Internal or external, you’ll be a good formist, look sharp, turn on all the ladies at the party.
I’ve been studying the internal now for a year. Haven’t been shown any form but a hell of a lot of function. A REAL LOT! I;d say my gung fu has progressed a few levels, increased my skill by 5 (honestly) since studying. Its the little things that add up to a lot.
I’m entering circle walking now. But I don’t consider that form. I consider it a way to work on function, fine tune, feel the correct transformation of weight.
We do a lot of boxing.
As for fighting, I don’t think we are too deadly for fighting. I think we are too good for anything but the real deal. Don’t chi sau or even push hands, put the gloves on. Its the best representation.
I was an external guy. I’ve seen it, and at a pretty good level. My first experience against someone internal (not house wife taiji) chnaged the way I viewed it. There’s nothing soft about these arts.
Relaxed, sometimes yieling sometimes taking, yes; but not soft.
Repulsive Monkey, actually that could be explained by body mechanics too, but I guess in a way that is not part of our intuitive understanding of body mechanics…it would be like some inner wave generated and channeled by the tendons that you cannot see by external movement, but that travel through the body, gaining force as each single part adds a portion of energy, and being issued in the palm into your rib cage…
My sifu said “3 and 1 inches power punch are requisite for high gong fu levels…but 0 inch punch is what high gong fu level is about”
I agree 100%. You have to be able to deliver power from contact. I’m no internal or external master, not even a senior, but I can produce a blow while ingaged to a bridge. Without this, I don;t think you’re even in the ball park, let alone the game.
The big things is, I’m still very external in delivering this blow. I’m hoping with time, more knowledge and practice, it will become more subtle and go deeper (reach internal). But for now I view it as where is the person getting power from? The power should be coming from the back/shoulder/elbow (thrusting)/foot. The power is expressed to the fist, which could be an inch away from the target or on the target.
I’m still sloppy with it, but its important – I think.
“The power should be coming from the back/shoulder/elbow (thrusting)/foot”
Using this example what makes it internal, how is it different then any other way of movement or striking
going deeper to make it internal, mmm sounds like you might end up doing some chi hugging or butt tucking stuff.
watch out its the tea, it’s tea 
From my experience, I see a lot of people perpetrating punching power from Tricep/Bicep.
Karate likes that nice snapping sound that there GI makes when pulling their arm back sharply. Wing Chun will chain punch until they are blue in the face but where is their power comeing from?
For me, the internal, so far, has been a precise study in mechanics, finding the true sorce of power. Cheating. When you much with your bicep/tricep power, I will counter with my upper back/shoulder muscles (my sifu calls it getting big brother to fight for you). My power is coming from a better sourse, and my wrist, elbow, shoulder alignment is a strong structure. It will not break. If its too much, I will give but the structure remains.
This is one example. The principles goes the same with leg work and stance. I find Wing Chun to be too erect, they have breaking points at their lower back/waist, as well as waist to knee area because of this erect stance. When they get pressure, if they are smaller, they break.
So, for me, this is the first part of the internal, getting things right. I’ve studied MA almost my whole life, and something as basic as a punch has changed, as well as the way I view it, almost every year. The external aspect of the internal to me, is like a blue print. As for the internal internal, the power, I’m doing my excercises as I’ve been shown and feeling their affetcs though I do not understand them fully, just noticing them.
That will come with time. I’m in no rush. For now, at 27, fighting has been and is something that I spend a lot of time thinking about, and doing when I have a chance. The principles I’ve learned from internal so far have helped tremedously. I’d beat the a$$ of the fighter I was a year ago, a month ago.
Crimson. Actually, Mike Sigman can do the no inch punch quite easily, and he’s no high level guy. (well, he says he’s not high level, but I think he’s incredibly good). In fact, Mike believes that any decent internal guy should be able to do the no inch punch especially if they are a teacher.
Bak-mei, many externalist use the waist and drive off with the foot as well during punching. They don’t really use arm nor shoulders that much. But I think forms are important to develope your peng jing before you touch someone.
Kumkuat, I do not know Mike Sigman…however, I do acknowledge that if one inch punch is a necessary condition for high gong fu level, as I stated it is not high gong fu level itself.
And I also believe that there are many gradations in one-inch punches, you have lame ones and impressive ones…