I see a lot of misplaced bashing of internalists - Fact is - I believe if you really look at it, internalists fight more. For example, look at Mike Patterson’s teams in the 90’s.
Wow, if you click on the Tournament Link
http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/KuoshuCollagePub.wmv
It comes up ONLY in Windows Media Player and NOT in a YouTube format. Therefore it’s obviously and hoax of some sort.
To think that Kung Fu could be used for Lei Tai Fighting is absolutely re-DQ-lous!
:rolleyes:
two points
1)some internals fight more, over in SE asia they seem to be involved alot more in full contact stuff atleast in the 80’s and 90’s, these days im not to sure…here in the west not so much only a few groups seem to be fghting
2) also what are you including in the term internals? tai chi, bagua, SPM, bak mei, when does a style stop being external? is wing chun internal?
[QUOTE=Frost;1127578]two points
1)some internals fight more, over in SE asia they seem to be involved alot more in full contact stuff atleast in the 80’s and 90’s, these days im not to sure…here in the west not so much only a few groups seem to be fghting
2) also what are you including in the term internals? tai chi, bagua, SPM, bak mei, when does a style stop being external? is wing chun internal?[/QUOTE]
All kung fu styles will have both internal and external elements (Yin and Yang balance). The styles that emphasis the Internals to greater extent are classified as Internals. I believe that Wing Chun when practiced correctly is Internal. That is how I have practiced it, but that does not meant that the external conditioning did not sometimes exhaust one to death, either, but again the emphasis was on Internal.
Also, there is no ONE way of practicing Internals. Different styles will have different approaches and “engines”. This is a great area for research for those who are genuinely interested in exploring the TCMAs further…
the only internal you practice is internal cumshots
and internal hemoroids resulting from those activities
[QUOTE=bawang;1127605]the only internal you practice is internal cumshots
and internal hemoroids resulting from those activities[/QUOTE]
Sorry Bawang, next time I will be more gentle with you…:rolleyes:
bawang
can you knock your **** off already? Im gettign realy sick of your off color comments. really man grow up there is not need to post crap like that on here.
[QUOTE=Frost;1127578]two points
1)some internals fight more, over in SE asia they seem to be involved alot more in full contact stuff atleast in the 80’s and 90’s, these days im not to sure…here in the west not so much only a few groups seem to be fghting
2) also what are you including in the term internals? tai chi, bagua, SPM, bak mei, when does a style stop being external? is wing chun internal?[/QUOTE]
I started the thread to point out that what’s traditionally classified as “internal” get a bad rap when they seem to fight more that what’s traditionally classified as “external” TCMA.
For example - Chen Bing of Tai Chi.
Notwithstanding the “internal,” “external” dichotomy (please don’t get me started on that,) all I will say is that, regardless of style, if you fight more you will be a better fighter.
Considering that my main critique of many of the “internal” players is the refusal to test what they claim by fighting, if they aren’t refusing to do that I got no beef with them.
I am the one who originally put up Patterson’s students fighting, in fact I’ve done it THREE TIMES
I’m surprised the so called traditional kung fu crowd here hasn’t broken their arms patting themselves on the back congratulating themselves on “internal” people fighting (while not actually doing it themselves!)
THE FACT REMAINS - what in his clips looks uniquely “internal”? answer NOTHING
What in those clips looks uniquely “kung fu”, answer again NOTHING
What you have is some well conditioned guys punching, kicking, kneeing and throwing
Which is what CMA should be focusing on anyway, as opposed to trying to look like bad kung fu theatre
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1127632]I am the one who originally put up Patterson’s students fighting, in fact I’ve done it THREE TIMES
I’m surprised the so called traditional kung fu crowd here hasn’t broken their arms patting themselves on the back congratulating themselves on “internal” people fighting (while not actually doing it themselves!)
THE FACT REMAINS - what in his clips looks uniquely “internal”? answer NOTHING
What in those clips looks uniquely “kung fu”, answer again NOTHING
What you have is some well conditioned guys punching, kicking, kneeing and throwing
Which is what CMA should be focusing on anyway, as opposed to trying to look like bad kung fu theatre[/QUOTE]
Well, if you think about it - Yi Quan tends to want to be absolutely formless, just internal power and then beat the h3ll out of each other, so they’re not going to be overly concerned with any one technique.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1127636]Well, if you think about it - Yi Quan tends to want to be absolutely formless, just internal power and then beat the h3ll out of each other, so they’re not going to be overly concerned with any one technique.[/QUOTE]
According to Patterson, he trained his fighters in Taiji, Hsing Yi and Bagua = all systems with definite technique (as well OF COURSE as theory)
He also says they did NO (ZERO) CROSS TRAINING
I actually have no issue with that claim, because I do believe those systems have all those punches, kicks and throws
Internal is as Internal does…
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1127640]According to Patterson, he trained his fighters in Taiji, Hsing Yi and Bagua = all systems with definite technique (as well OF COURSE as theory)
He also says they did NO (ZERO) CROSS TRAINING
I actually have no issue with that claim, because I do believe those systems have all those punches, kicks and throws[/QUOTE]
Of course these systems have all those “punches, kicks and throws”. What chinese system doesn’t? There are only so many things that can be done with a hand or a foot. What makes these systems their own is the methods of power generation, tactical overlays, footwork, etc. as is true in any “system”. It is the core components that tie all the parts together and make it work.
Beyond this, I think there is a major disconnect in the way most people train their kungfu in American today. Meaning that they train form but not essence. And they do not train essence for fighting at all. At least most don’t.
Beyond that, actual fighting is not film making. You rarely get to see the “picture perfect technique”. When you do, that is a true kodak moment. Mostly, and especially for the first several years of full contact competition, you see a developing use of principle in the evolving fighter. It is only after many years, when they become more calm in such a circumstance, that you may actually see more from them.
Which leads me to my second “disconnect”. Most people do not train to “marry” the skills they gain through practice of their respective “art” to the actuality of the pressure of fighting. Things are different when another human being is determinde to hurt you and you are well aware of that fact.
So, what is uniquely internal in my guys and girls? The use of principle, the use of footwork, the use of tactics. Beyond that, isn’t all martial arts just punches, kicks and throws? 
[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1127802]Of course these systems have all those “punches, kicks and throws”. What chinese system doesn’t? There are only so many things that can be done with a hand or a foot. What makes these systems their own is the methods of power generation, tactical overlays, footwork, etc. as is true in any “system”. It is the core components that tie all the parts together and make it work.
Beyond this, I think there is a major disconnect in the way most people train their kungfu in American today. Meaning that they train form but not essence. And they do not train essence for fighting at all. At least most don’t.
Beyond that, actual fighting is not film making. You rarely get to see the “picture perfect technique”. When you do, that is a true kodak moment. Mostly, and especially for the first several years of full contact competition, you see a developing use of principle in the evolving fighter. It is only after many years, when they become more calm in such a circumstance, that you may actually see more from them.
Which leads me to my second “disconnect”. Most people do not train to “marry” the skills they gain through practice of their respective “art” to the actuality of the pressure of fighting. Things are different when another human being is determinde to hurt you and you are well aware of that fact.
So, what is uniquely internal in my guys and girls? The use of principle, the use of footwork, the use of tactics. Beyond that, isn’t all martial arts just punches, kicks and throws? ;)[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything in this post
[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1127802]Of course these systems have all those “punches, kicks and throws”. What chinese system doesn’t? There are only so many things that can be done with a hand or a foot. What makes these systems their own is the methods of power generation, tactical overlays, footwork, etc. as is true in any “system”. It is the core components that tie all the parts together and make it work.
Beyond this, I think there is a major disconnect in the way most people train their kungfu in American today. Meaning that they train form but not essence. And they do not train essence for fighting at all. At least most don’t.
Beyond that, actual fighting is not film making. You rarely get to see the “picture perfect technique”. When you do, that is a true kodak moment. Mostly, and especially for the first several years of full contact competition, you see a developing use of principle in the evolving fighter. It is only after many years, when they become more calm in such a circumstance, that you may actually see more from them.
Which leads me to my second “disconnect”. Most people do not train to “marry” the skills they gain through practice of their respective “art” to the actuality of the pressure of fighting. Things are different when another human being is determinde to hurt you and you are well aware of that fact.
So, what is uniquely internal in my guys and girls? The use of principle, the use of footwork, the use of tactics. Beyond that, isn’t all martial arts just punches, kicks and throws? ;)[/QUOTE]
and yet when people like urself, and other legit “internal” practitioners (Tim Cartmell, Adam Hsu, etc.) make these sort of statements, u get this cry of woe from the “internal” community, who claim that they reason what u do looks that way is because u aren’t doing it the right way; furthermore, they will tell u that “true internal” goes beyond such base, crude and coarse things like biomechanics, that it exists in some nether realm of pure effortlessness that cannot be appropriated by the “western” mind (which is total BS, because I can think of at least three purely “western” systems of movement that not only teach u how to create but fully describe the supposedly incomprehensible concept of “sung”);
“internal” people want their fantasy-as-reality and will rationalize away anything that does not fit that fantasy;
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1127809]and yet when people like urself, and other legit “internal” practitioners (Tim Cartmell, Adam Hsu, etc.) make these sort of statements, u get this cry of woe from the “internal” community, who claim that they reason what u do looks that way is because u aren’t doing it the right way; furthermore, they will tell u that “true internal” goes beyond such base, crude and coarse things like biomechanics, that it exists in some nether realm of pure effortlessness that cannot be appropriated by the “western” mind (which is total BS, because I can think of at least three purely “western” systems of movement that not only teach u how to create but fully describe the supposedly incomprehensible concept of “sung”);
“internal” people want their fantasy-as-reality and will rationalize away anything that does not fit that fantasy;[/QUOTE]
Cue an appearance by Hendrik…
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1127809]and yet when people like urself, and other legit “internal” practitioners (Tim Cartmell, Adam Hsu, etc.) make these sort of statements, u get this cry of woe from the “internal” community, who claim that they reason what u do looks that way is because u aren’t doing it the right way; furthermore, they will tell u that “true internal” goes beyond such base, crude and coarse things like biomechanics, that it exists in some nether realm of pure effortlessness that cannot be appropriated by the “western” mind (which is total BS, because I can think of at least three purely “western” systems of movement that not only teach u how to create but fully describe the supposedly incomprehensible concept of “sung”);
“internal” people want their fantasy-as-reality and will rationalize away anything that does not fit that fantasy;[/QUOTE]
When I first arrived in San Diego, literally fresh off the plane so to speak from Taiwan, I went to a school that advertised teaching all three “internal” arts. Since I had never been to a U.S. based school of such, I decided to go see for myself.
A polite young man greeted me and we began to chat about the arts. He began to ask me questions about what I thought regarding things like “the sticking chi, the lifting chi, the suppressing chi, etc. etc.” And I was confused. None of my teachers had ever used such words or jargon to me in my education. This seemed to make him feel superior. And more discussion ensued. Eventuall this led us to a “common ground” where he then asked me to “push hands” with him. I readily agreed, of course, as I love pushing hands with complete unknowns. We then discussed the rules of play and commenced to link arms.
When I touched him, he was utterly and completely soft. No linkage what-so-ever. No connection to the ground. He was literally “draping” on my arms. So I asked him if he were ready yet or just positioning himself. He replied that he was indeed ready, with a rather bemused look on his face. So, I drove both palms straight into his chest and uprooted him across the floor. When he came to a stop, he got up and began to shake his index finger at me, exclaiming; “tha.. tha… that’s BARBARIC!!!” I was again confused and told him so. He said that he had been taught to NEVER use short power in push hands because of its danger. I said… “and???” :rolleyes:
So, we linked up again, since he said he maybe wasn’t ready afterall. And now he was stiff as a board trying to keep me out. So, I cut his force with a simple redirect and sent him flying again. You can imagine the words after that second go, so I’ll cut to the end…
I said to him; “what good is all the fancy jargon about the sticking chi, the lifting chi, the suppressing chi, and such, if you can’t even stop a simple straight push from me?”
I come from a long line of fighters. And the internal arts have two sides built into them. They have the side devoted to health and longevity trainings and they have the side devoted to using those same actions for fighting.
I have no problem with people who teach my arts for the prior, just don’t advertise it with a “ch’uan” fist at the end and then tell people honestly that you don’t teach that aspect. We’ll get along just fine. But tell me that I’m doing it wrong and you’re going to need to prove to me why.
Who do we have to bribe to keep Shihfu Patterson here 
[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1127828] When I first arrived in San Diego, literally fresh off the plane so to speak from Taiwan, I went to a school that advertised teaching all three “internal” arts. Since I had never been to a U.S. based school of such, I decided to go see for myself.
A polite young man greeted me and we began to chat about the arts. He began to ask me questions about what I thought regarding things like “the sticking chi, the lifting chi, the suppressing chi, etc. etc.” And I was confused. None of my teachers had ever used such words or jargon to me in my education. This seemed to make him feel superior. And more discussion ensued. Eventuall this led us to a “common ground” where he then asked me to “push hands” with him. I readily agreed, of course, as I love pushing hands with complete unknowns. We then discussed the rules of play and commenced to link arms.
When I touched him, he was utterly and completely soft. No linkage what-so-ever. No connection to the ground. He was literally “draping” on my arms. So I asked him if he were ready yet or just positioning himself. He replied that he was indeed ready, with a rather bemused look on his face. So, I drove both palms straight into his chest and uprooted him across the floor. When he came to a stop, he got up and began to shake his index finger at me, exclaiming; “tha.. tha… that’s BARBARIC!!!” I was again confused and told him so. He said that he had been taught to NEVER use short power in push hands because of its danger. I said… “and???” :rolleyes:
So, we linked up again, since he said he maybe wasn’t ready afterall. And now he was stiff as a board trying to keep me out. So, I cut his force with a simple redirect and sent him flying again. You can imagine the words after that second go, so I’ll cut to the end…
I said to him; “what good is all the fancy jargon about the sticking chi, the lifting chi, the suppressing chi, and such, if you can’t even stop a simple straight push from me?”
I come from a long line of fighters. And the internal arts have two sides built into them. They have the side devoted to health and longevity trainings and they have the side devoted to using those same actions for fighting.
I have no problem with people who teach my arts for the prior, just don’t advertise it with a “ch’uan” fist at the end and then tell people honestly that you don’t teach that aspect. We’ll get along just fine. But tell me that I’m doing it wrong and you’re going to need to prove to me why. ;)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1127828] When I first arrived in San Diego, literally fresh off the plane so to speak from Taiwan, I went to a school that advertised teaching all three “internal” arts. Since I had never been to a U.S. based school of such, I decided to go see for myself.
A polite young man greeted me and we began to chat about the arts. He began to ask me questions about what I thought regarding things like “the sticking chi, the lifting chi, the suppressing chi, etc. etc.” And I was confused. None of my teachers had ever used such words or jargon to me in my education. This seemed to make him feel superior. And more discussion ensued. Eventuall this led us to a “common ground” where he then asked me to “push hands” with him. I readily agreed, of course, as I love pushing hands with complete unknowns. We then discussed the rules of play and commenced to link arms.
When I touched him, he was utterly and completely soft. No linkage what-so-ever. No connection to the ground. He was literally “draping” on my arms. So I asked him if he were ready yet or just positioning himself. He replied that he was indeed ready, with a rather bemused look on his face. So, I drove both palms straight into his chest and uprooted him across the floor. When he came to a stop, he got up and began to shake his index finger at me, exclaiming; “tha.. tha… that’s BARBARIC!!!” I was again confused and told him so. He said that he had been taught to NEVER use short power in push hands because of its danger. I said… “and???” :rolleyes:
So, we linked up again, since he said he maybe wasn’t ready afterall. And now he was stiff as a board trying to keep me out. So, I cut his force with a simple redirect and sent him flying again. You can imagine the words after that second go, so I’ll cut to the end…
I said to him; “what good is all the fancy jargon about the sticking chi, the lifting chi, the suppressing chi, and such, if you can’t even stop a simple straight push from me?”
I come from a long line of fighters. And the internal arts have two sides built into them. They have the side devoted to health and longevity trainings and they have the side devoted to using those same actions for fighting.
I have no problem with people who teach my arts for the prior, just don’t advertise it with a “ch’uan” fist at the end and then tell people honestly that you don’t teach that aspect. We’ll get along just fine. But tell me that I’m doing it wrong and you’re going to need to prove to me why. ;)[/QUOTE]
about 10 years ago, my sifu was out in San Diego doing a seminar, and had a visit from a senior student of a National Push Hands Champion by the name of Chris Luth; now, if u have ever seen what he does in terms of yielding, you know what I’m talking about…so, the guy wants to push w my sifu, and starts doing the whole bending way backwards thing; so my sifu just pushes him straight down, and the guy falls, and gets all bent out of shape, and irritated that this is just coarse, not taiji, etc. (the way my sifu does push hands is more like what u c in Taiwan, and he doesn’t mix w the “mainstream” taiji crowd here in NY)
another time, we had a long time Chen Man Ching student come by, who was supposedly very highly regarded in that system for his pushing ability; so my sifu has me push w him, nice and easy; if I told u that the guy was so into yielding that he literally threw himself out when we pushed, i wouldn’t be kidding - I mean, I literally was trying to help the guy keep himself centered, and he would just try even harder to throw himself out; afterwards, he was so impressed w my skills, he couldn’t say enough about it; now, i don’t know if he was just being obsequious, but it sure was weird as hell…
on the plus end, u have guys like Sam Chin (http://iliqchuan.com/) and Mike Pekor (http://www.taichili.com/) here in NY who r doing pushing based not just on fantasy but on resisting opponents; also, there were at least some students of BP Chan who didn’t just melt away when u touched them…
it really just befuddles me, that u have guys who r so wrapped up in their fantasy-fu that when u put reality right to their faces, they tell u that u r crazy;
anyway, a pleasure chatting w u;
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1127831]Who do we have to bribe to keep Shihfu Patterson here :p[/QUOTE]
I’m sure that sooner or later he’d end up being discredited by the “I’ve got a special kung fu secret” crowd…