I know what the traditional stereotype is. This external style is great or that external style is great, but don’t mess with the old man who’s a neijia master.
I know what the modern day stereotype is. Internal arts are all about old people and hippies moving in slow motion in the park while wearing silk pajamas and spouting tidbits of Taoist profundity. These guys can’t actually fight there way through a wet rice paper wall.
Both of those stereotypes are humorously over-simplified, even when they are at their most true. What I’d like to know is what do the members of KFO, especially those with actual experience touching hands, think of the fighting abilities of internal artists as a rule.
I don’t like those catagories I prefer to think of it this way. When people say internal they mean arts based on Taoist principle. External=Shaolin type styles. Neither better just different.
I personally have never fought an internal(Taoist) style fighter. The technque is good and the theroy is sound. I just find the majority of them are
extremely overconfident in their “superior” style(usually beginners)
to much false humility(usually have a few years in and later on grow out of this)
At least out of the people who post here. Either one of these is damaging to the practice isn’t it?
Anyway I think there are lots of good internal(Taoist arts) fighters but they aren’t in anyway superior to external(buddhist arts) fighters. Yet to be completely honest I beleive the majority of Kungfu guys can’t fight their way from a wet paper bag. It’s not a problem with the art but in the USA kungfu tends to attract hippies, wannabe philosophers/mystics and 90 pound weaklings like the one in the old Charles Atlas advertisements. They sure are fun to beat up though:D
I am new to Xingyi. So I am the beginner. But I can tell you this after taking some Xingyi. The crap I heard on this board as to what was internal and external was a lot of that. Nobody here can really tell the difference without going and see/feeling what it is. Based on what I have seen, been taught and felt, the WAY power is generated is very different in the Internals than the externals. And it takes time to learn. No magic going on, just a different way to do something.
Also, and maybe this is because I am takin Xingyi, and not Taji, but we only have two guys smaller than me, and I am 200lbs. and not too fat. But hey dude, Xingyi is about smashing and pounding, no time to get light headed on health dancing.
By the way, I followed others advice on THIS board, and decided to start taking some Internal Arts, and hey, at least my horrible posture has been corrected. My problem now, is that I FEEL everytime I get into that old slumpy posture. And not just standing either. Kinda ruined some of my old video game and computer working habits. ****.
My viewpoint here is the same for both extrenal and internal:
“Same can and some can’t.”
And most of the people that can don’t go around advertising it.
Being myself a fair newbie to the Internal Arts (not to MA itself), I can see that the potential is there same as with many other systems I learned.
After that it becomes personal of course.
But, yes, I believe that Internal fighting ability is about the same as external.
Not better or weaker but different.
Wow, an actual thread about Kung Fu and on the main forum no less…back to the question.
I personally respect the “internal arts”. Not necessarily everyone practicing but i think aside from the majority that will never gain any skill or ever understand how to use it in a fight, the others have proven it to be effective. I guess thats the Internal/External trade-off. Internal takes longer but builds health somehow, someway while you wait and train, fewer people will actually know how to fight using it. External gives you fighting ability quicker, alittle harder to use in extreme old age ( 70, 80 range). Theres a alot of contradiction though. Some people state that all arts are equal and we should judge the practitioner, but in the same sentence mention how Tai Chi and the like are superior to everything else. Whether it’s by body mechanics, alignment, the use of chi=jing, etc. or by the fact that they switched from whatever they practiced and now practice an “internal art” for whatever reason.
Overrated. But only because of the myths (i.e. don’t mess with the little old man) There are as many good internal as external fighters, they just go about things slightly differently. A few things IMO about either side are slightly more efficient. But internal i reckon is more overrated than external.
I don’t think I’ve seen many traitional internal arts that teach in an alive and realistic manor with resisting apponents.
Thats probably why it takes so long to become a good fighter in it
I think the “take along time to learn” thing may be a myth or misunderstanding about internal arts. I have heard first hand accounts about young children and teenagers in Chen Jia Gou kicking butt with Tai Chi. I have also heard their daily training consists of a morning workout in which they run do pushups situps etc. So I think the “soft” type classes here are probally not they way it should be.
Like I said before I don’t like those catagories I just think the difference is that one uses Taoist principles and one uses Buddhist principles. I think an old man from a Shaolin style and an old man from Tai chi/hsing yi/Bagua would pretty much be in the same place.
Being a student of an art that at its zenith perfectly blends both internal and external, it’s my opinion that the only thing that matters is the individual. How good does the individual fight? S/he can have chi out the yingyang so to speak, means nothing if they never fight with it.
Perhaps some of the “magic” of Taiji is that the “little old man” can still best 20 year olds. Whereas external artists abilities seem to wither in their old age. It may seem magical but its just one method is better attuned to older practitioners.
.” So I think the “soft” type classes here are probably not they way it should be.”
How they should be depends on what your looking for I would imagine. I think it really depends on the teacher and a persons interpretation / perception of what are called internal arts.
The common thread “IMHO” that I have found in IMA arts that I use to separate them from the others is that the developmently influences seemed to have been based on philosophies expressed in a MA medium.
Much different then the development of say a style like praying mantis or maybe wing chun /many other arts/ where the arts if you can believe the org. stories appear to have developed in response to a direct combative need.
Even in China there are people with very different ideas within the IMA community (from those people that I have talked with) of what is and is not internal, it’s not like everyone agrees either you accept a master’s definition until you can follow/find your own way or you’re stuck.
Another master may come along and tell you something that seems to be contrary what you have just learned.
once you have a clear idea, then you can really be free to follow your way instead of a way.
The differences that I see between here and there is that people seem to have a more open mind and are not so regimented. Maybe a lot has to do with the culture that goes along with the art. Something that I don’t think always comes though here.
just because a person is old if s/he is good then they are good / also if they are not so good then this is true also.
the trick as i see it, is where are you at in your own training to know what your looking for and how open are you to change.
our guys can fight and fight well, but sifu has also implimented a couple other hard styles into our system. most of the advanced practicioners seem to use a slightly spicey taichi more than anything else though.
I don’t know why every body thinks shaolin style fighters past middle age are useless.
Shaolin arts DO have internal practices
Shaolin exercises the body completely. Shaolin arts exercise both internal and external. I am sure if you consult internal masters they will say this is nessacary, unless they are “quacks”
People can last along time in Shaolin arts, Shaolin may be labeled as external but during the development of practice methods. Shaolin masters took great care to make sure the methods weren’t destructive to the body.
I have seen video of a very old Shaolin monk(near 100 years old I think) using a monks spade that was said to weigh 90 LBS.
Shaolin arts change with your age. A 20 year old Longfist fighter will use his art differently than a 70 year old fighter. Just like the “internal arts” the more mature you get in the art the less “external/muscular” force you use.
All martial arts reguardless of the “external internal” labels move towards using subtile movement in effect “Subduing 1,000 lbs with a single ounce”.
Have you guys ever seen the 70 or 80 year old guy running marathons around young people at parks? Physical movement is possible at old age if you live a clean life style.
See what I mean about most of the internal artists here? They think they alone have the fountain of youth and that their style is far superior to anything else. I like internal arts but the superior attitude allot of internal players have turns me off to the arts.
Funny Sharky. Bringing the locker room talk to the show.
Shoalin, I am only asking. It wasn’t a stement but a question. I will say doing a form (though impressive swinging one of those at that age) is different from fighting.
If you reversed it I’d say my sifu: At 60 years young he goes to a boxing gym in NYC and fights with the Golden Gloves for fun. For fun. He admits he has trouble with the super heavweights because the punching with gloves doesn’t do enough damage (he weighs about 145). He asks them to take the gloves off and they say no way. He’s been aproached to fight pro, not having his age known.
As for martial artist, he still accepts challenges and there have been a few guests since I started a year ago. So, my master is proof that the internal – not relying on speed reflexes or muscle strenght – is quite usable past middle age, though I suspect my sifu will live for a verry long time. Probbaly out live myself. He’s full of life.
One of the reasons I train so hard is because I’d like to stand in his place oneday, so he doesn’t have to do the foghting. He deserves to sit back at this stage and watch his art in motion.
Anyway, I digress. I have done the bone washing drills and gun ji fook fu. The later goes against internal principles. The dynamic tension, 100% against. If you are feeling your own power, the other guy isn’t. And, besides that, you are still, can’t flow or chnage easily and the striking becaomes forced and awkward.
But hey dude, Xingyi is about smashing and pounding, no time to get light headed on health dancing.