YOUR opinion of internal artists fighting ability?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Just because dynamic tension goes against “internal art principles” doesn’t mean anything to me. I don’t practice internal arts, at least not yet. The point I am making is that they are different but each can take you far. One comment I hear from allot of internal guys is that “look at that, it’s not the way we do it we are better”. Dynamic tension actually does train internal energy, the Wei Qi, this is the basis for the iron body. You aren’t supposed to strike using dynamic tension that would be stupid:rolleyes:

In my short time in martial arts I have learned that everybody does it different. Just because my method is different doesn’t make anybody elses less valid or mine better. Your Sifu may have acomplished allot with the internal arts but think of it this way, would he have less ability if he chose a shaolin art? I doubt it, his acomplishment comes from his character and determination not his chosen path.

I used the Monk spade example to prove that even though he was old he still had allot of strength. I doubt most people here could use a 90LB monk spade.

22

Hey
I see it as firstly a misinterpartation of this whole Internal/external deal by teachers in the west.
Second I think that in order to acheive competence in anything you have to put in the hard yards.This means the student has to put in,get out there and play,not just dutifully attend his classes.
I think many simply take the road of lest resistence,finding that within their schools they are not required to fight and so they don’t investigate any further.If one is doing for health reasons all power to them,the problems arise when they are tricked into beleving(usually by their instruictor) that the push hands that they dabble in is making them invincable.

Without a doubt the greatest effect is from the way Tai Chi has been promoted around the world.It is taken as the stardard (as I did with reference to push hands)on which to judge other “internal MA” .

23

See what I mean about most of the internal artists here? They think they alone have the fountain of youth and that their style is far superior to anything else. I like internal arts but the superior attitude allot of internal players have turns me off to the arts.

Uhh, no. I have not seen the internalists on this thread saying that their internal art is FAR SUPERIOR to externals. That would also need to be more than one or two to deserve your ranking of MOST internal artists here. What posts are you refering to that say internals are far superior? I missed it.

24

I don’t think that the little old man myth is such a myth, though, maybe more of a legend. In many MA histories, including mine, there are tales of older masters dispatching the local band of riff-raff. I wouldn’t totally discount these stories as mythology, because I have little evidence pointing either way.

In my personal history, my grandfather was an exceptional worn down fighter, who taught me a few things about boxing. He made me think twice about picking a fight with him; even if it was all in fun.

Sorry, I went on a tangent. I’ll try to stay on topic next time.

25

You know what I don’t like? Stereotypes.

26

good one

27

altho the fat friend is a FACT, not just a stereotype.

apart from this girl i’ve JUST started seein - she doesn’t have one. she’s great :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

28

Don’t worry, Sharky, I’m sure there’e a fat friend waiting in the wings to ruin one of your future nights.:wink:

I have a lot of respect for the external arts, and I have met several practitioners I considered to be very good. However, as they age, I feel they will lose the edge they had in youth. In fact, I have met several practitioners like this, because theywere looking for an art they could use well into old age, so it’s apparently a widespread opinion, even if not universally true. I started the internal while still fairly young because, being a fairly economical individual, I didn’t want to waste time learning one art and then have to take up something else in old age to make up for the effects of age itself.

But of course, there are elder from all styles that defy the rule, such as Karate amsters who are extremely relaxed and in good health, and internal masters who die of easily avoided illnesses. So I guess, again, that it depends in part on the individual.

29

Old karate masters are internalists. Don’t be fooled.

30

ooh, i got another; fat people that eat chicken legs off the bone.

they on some hardcore cannable sh.it. fuc.kin disgustin.

31

ShaolinDynasty. My last posst was not a, “We do it like this, you do it like that, but we are better.”

It was in response to the all so common clame by Hung Gar and Wing Chun to be internal. There methods of internal go against internal principles. That’s what I’m saying.

As for my sifu and his ability given an external style, he has taken the external styles furhtet than most here claiming to know them. He studied WC with Ip Man, Hung Gar, Mantis, Boxing he has even trained Tae Kwon Do. When I heard that it blew me away. But I admire that mindset – he’s not one to say unless he has seen.

I try to be the same way. I am speaking from what I have seen in Hung Gar (not just mine under Frank Yee’s student, but out at tournaments) and Wing CHun (same).

Its a silly argument in the end. Do what you want. But the odds of walking into that “great school” on a first try, up the block on the main road, is very unlikely.

I came to the internal after 13 or 14 years of Isshin-Ryu, 4 of Hung Gar/Wing Chun and 3 or so of Southern Mantis.

My foundation was set with Isshin-Ryu, learned how to move and more iportantly look and see, how to train – determination. WC taught me trapping and sticking. Hun Gar power. Southern Mantis ferosity.

Now I am looking for that next level. Superb, unquestionable technique, backed by energy practices and a healthy resolve to be able to continue in combat to a ripe old age.

That is what “I” am looking for.

It would have been very easy to stay with Isshin-Ryu as a lower dan blackbelt. I was already considered one of the best at the school, even though I was young. I could have stayed with Hung Gar and Wing Chun, but the teaching was not so good there.

I almost stayed with the S. MAntis, that’s how much I liked it. It took meeting an internalist to show that there is still a higher way.

32

Sharky, if you want more action, try being at least HALF as attractive as the girls you chase, ok?

:wink:

33

Ah crap, I left out the “h.” That was supposed to read “karate h amsters!”:stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously, though, I know what you mean. I’m not sure if this level of progression is still caried out today or whether it was lost, though. An Uechi Ryu friend of mine gave me a demo video a while back of some old Uechi masters (not hamsters!:stuck_out_tongue: ) moving more like internal stylists than karate stylists. This one master had the “waving” effect going on big time. But this is the only place I have seen this. According to Erle Montaigue, there is a Karate master, whose name I forget, who does his kata (and I would assume fights as well) as if he were doing Taiji.

34

jas, i’ll explain why your cuss wasn’t funny.

it’s simply because it didn’t relate to anything i had said. if, for example, you had turned the fat thing around on me, then there could be potential for it to be humorous. But you didn’t.

No, what you did in fact do, was assume i wanted “more action” when i never said anything about that. Then you made a wierd statement about trying to be half as attractive as the girls i chase - but in whose eyes?

Frankly jas, i’m disappointed with your efforts. Do keep trying though.

Edd

35

"what you did in fact do, was assume i wanted “more action” when i never said anything about that. " Sure you did, man. You even went one step further, and tried to blame your lack of success on the fact that the chiks you chase have fat friends that get in the way, that’s why you can’t get near 'em. Man, if the chik wanted to be with you, she’d tell the friend to get lost, no prob.

"about trying to be half as attractive as the girls i chase - but in whose eyes? " Well now this one is pretty self-evident - in the eyes of the chik you’re chasin’, of course.

Ahh, relax, Edd. I was just reacting to your stupid fatchik comment, its the same crap guys who cant get laid spout everywhere in the world, like they’re such a **** fine catch themselves. No need to get into it, I just like taking the mickey out of you. I’ll try harder next time :wink:

Back to the topic! :smiley:

36

O, I know there are some good karate players out there, no doubt. They just aren’t springing up at Tiget Schulman’s … or at least not out here on Long Island.

I met a guy a little younger then myself a while ago; got his black belt in three years. To me, that’s just **** insulting.

Hey, maybe he was a protogy, but I sensed he would have some trouble in a real altercation.

But, he must have been good, because he quit already, having gained mastery of the black belt:rolleyes:

My old teacher told me, “Black belt is really your white belt, now we can begin training.”

I think he was right.

37

For clarification,

When I asked the question, I was and still am referring to those arts which fit the most stringent orthodox definition of internal arts. These would be arts that:

a) are Taoist in nature and are based on Taoist internal principles. This rules out any Shaolin arts.

b) rely on structure as their primary source of power rather than the external musculature.

c) originated within the borders of China. Again, I’m ruling out Shaolin arts here.

I have nothing at all against Shaolin arts, or arts from non-Chinese cultures, for that matter. It’s just that this particular thread isn’t about them, pure and simple. If someone would like to argue why this or that Shaolin art qualifies as internal, start your own thread and debate away. The question I raised refers to those arts classically considered as the neijia arts. Thanks.

38

Most internalists aren’t fighters as it is so there are a lot of variables hanging loosely around the question.

Even internalists who can defend themselves are unlikely to be fighters.

39

Hey Sharky, feel priveledged. At least Jas is coming out and telling you her exact feelings, and not hiding her crap about you forever never letting you know and suddenly bringing it up for no apparent reason without any rationality and just blows up completly out of character and acts about as old as a newborn fowl.

grumble grumble

:smiley:
:smiley:

What Jas did is a GOOD thing, see? :smiley:

But Jas, Sharky has a point too. Being a woman is bad.
LOL okay sorry, obviously I don’t mean that. Give me a couple days, I’ll be back to my chivalrous self. :slight_smile:

Ryu

40

“Even internalists who can defend themselves are unlikely to be fighters.”

First time I heard someone here put it that way. My sifu will not send someone out to a tournament if they are going to fight.

“We don’t fight, we just beat the $hit out of you.” That’s the school motto. I’m not there yet. I’m still a fighter, relying on my weight too much. Though strides are being made.