What’s main difference between Taiji, Hsing-yi, and Ba Gua? Thank you.
Even a perfect answer in words would not give you the true feeling of the difference. If you are fortunate, find a teacher who teaches at least 2 of the mentioned arts and ask them to show you them both.
Most teachers will gladly oblige so that you can understand the differences.
They are significantly difference but all rely on posture and structural positionining/integrity/internal power generation (from the dantien/waist.)
Good luck in your learning.
I understand that, but I was still looking for a general answer I guess. Im sure someone here is aware of the difference at least. Thank you.
rock, paper, and scissors
Greetings..
Fundamentally, there is no difference.. It is merely different paths up the same mountain.. Like Nexus said, words fail in this matter.. at best, the explanation would be way too lengthy for this venue.. Visit classes, read books, rent videos.. Enjoy the journey..
Be well..
Say you and your opponent is fighting up in the cliff.
If you are a xingyquan fighter, you just keep moving forward until your opponent get oblibirated off the cliff.
If you are a baguaguan fighter, everytime your opponent attack, you evade and attack from blind corner until your opponent is off the clif.
If you are a taijiqquan figher, everytime your opponent attack you neutralised it and when he retreat, you seize that momvent to push him flying off the clif.
That’s my best description.
I think that Vapour is outlining the key differences, it comes down to tactics. Strategically they are very similar, but after battle is engaged they are rather different.
One way to approach it is to consider how they treat the ground of battle. Taijiquan shows its roots as a village style in that it is like a walled town. Stand your ground and invite the opponent to waste their strength on your walls, punctuated by the occasional sally out to lift the siege.
Xingiquan is like heavy infantry, thundering along and taking the battleground from one end to the other. Willing to absorb losses without stopping.
Baguazhang is like light cavalry. Profoundly maneuverable with articulate scouts. Willing to give up the ground to allow for flanking maneuvers and able to go formless before suddenly wheeling and striking.
Nice Summary
Cool Summary, Kevin,
I liked it. So how’ve you been doing, bud? Email me when you get a chance. Anything new in your neck of the woods?
Compared to the external arts, how long does it take for someone to become a proficient fighter in the internal arts? Can they contend with an external martial practitioner with same years of training generally speaking? I dont mean to be a fight monger, but just wondering. Thank you.
It depends how you are taught. Some people are fighting a lot within the first year, and then others don’t start sanshou (not the sport) for a couple years. But in general I would say (and this is a paraphrase of something my teacher told us William Chen said) that if after three years of practice you don’t have something that you can use effectively in a fight, then you’re doing something wrong (not that you should be a master, but that you should have a solid amount of stuff that works for you that you can build on).
I thought Xingyi is learned relatively in very short amount of time compared to the other 2 internal arts. And is very powerful and dominating compared to the other 2 as what the guys said in the previous posts.
Originally posted by StickyHands
Compared to the external arts, how long does it take for someone to become a proficient fighter in the internal arts? Can they contend with an external martial practitioner with same years of training generally speaking? I dont mean to be a fight monger, but just wondering. Thank you.
There is no mistery.
A Internal guy training for fighting correctly takes the same time as External guy training for fighting.
On the other hand, if this Internal guy’s training is aimed at developing the “holy premature mother chi blast from the 666th galaxy cosmos” or something then the External guy will beat him easy. In this case not in 1, 3 or 20 years will the Internal guy ever be any good in fighting.
Greetings..
“holy premature mother chi blast from the 666th galaxy cosmos” or something then the External guy will beat him easy. In this case not in 1, 3 or 20 years will the Internal guy ever be any good in fighting.
…
Once again, someone assigns their own misguided concepts to a relatively simple concept.. muscle strength vs. energy refinement and tendon strength (tendon strength allows the muscles to relax so we don’t fight ourselves).. Sure, there’s a bunch of people out there that wish there was some mystical holy grail.. there is, but, it’s already yours… The simple reason it takes longer to truly utilize “internal arts” is the amount of detail that requires attention, the amount of “unlearning” external indoctrinations, the amount of lifestyle changes we should go through to fully realize proper form and function of the body, mind spirit connection. I’ve played both sides, evolving from external to internal and it was 5 years before i felt the truly martial potential of Tai Chi, 10 years before it really started to manifest itself in my sparring.. now, almost 15 years later, i have substituted internal arts for external with rewarding success..
Too many people assume that “Chi” is some mystical energy.. it is not, it is simple life energy.. it’s the stuff that’s missing when you mix-up the precise amount of chemicals to build a human body.. it is what animates us.. internalists simply pay attention to the subtleties (QiGong, TCM, etc.. ) and train the energy as well as the machine..like any engine, the quality of fuel greatly affects the engine’s performance.. Most often, i see those that dismiss “Chi” are the ones that just don’t have the patience or will to invest the time in the diverse aspects of internal arts.. and that’s okay, i don’t belittle their choice, it’s not an easy regimen..
To assert that the internal guy (“chi blast”, that’s just silly and prejudicial) will never be any good at fighting is simply not so.. yeah, i know, why don’t we see them “in the Cage”?.. because the time involved in internal training seems to impart some maturity as well.. By the way, “Chi blast” can be an appropriate description when refined energy surges through well-trained tendons and muscles supported by a correctly aligned body.. the effect is substantially different than a similar looking external technique..
Anyway, that’s “my” understanding.. Be well..
"yeah, i know, why don’t we see them “in the Cage”?.. because the time involved in internal training seems to impart some maturity as well.. "
That’s ridiculous. Forgive me for putting words in your mouth but are you saying that by the time people have learnt to fight with an internal art that they’ve grown out of wanting to compete?
That competing is not for mature people?
I would also like to defend what Xebsall said. I don’t think he was belittling people who train in the more ‘internal’ aspects of the internal arts, merely pointing out that if your training only involves this and no sparring or fight training then you’re never going to be a good fighter. This makes perfect sense to me…
i seems to me that xebby was just saying that if you don’t train to fight you won’t be a good fighter.
15 years to be able to fight with tai chi? what a huge waste of time. IMO.
Go Xebby Go!!!
Greetings…
To be clear.. i learned to “fight” in the late '60s early '70s.. i could already “fight” when i started TaiChi.. There’s a difference between “fighters” and “warriors”.. but, i don’t expect many to recognize the difference until they have made the journey as well.. Odd, how easily some people are so casual about their judgments of others..
15 years to be able to fight with tai chi? what a huge waste of time. IMO.
We each choose how we “waste” our time.. i’m okay with my choices and the approval of others is not required… i also thought i could fight correctly after 5 years in Tai Chi.. 15 years later i see the difference.
A Internal guy training for fighting correctly takes the same time as External guy training for fighting.
Many that have been in internal arts for 2 or 3 or 5 years feel they can fight “correctly”.. why, then, do so many people comitt so many years to the pursuit of this art.. why do students seek the masters that have invested their lives to refine the skills they could get by following external traditions.. Now, in defense of the last quote, if the implication is that the training never ends for both.. i bow to the wisdom..
Aside from all that, i am simply relating my own experiences in the arts.. Certainly “mature” people desire to compete, we ALL compete at some level.. i’m just saying that for myself, the competition became more with myself.. i did not mean to imply that maturity imparts wisdom.. and, indeed, i agree if one doesn’t train to fight, the skills won’t manifest themselves magically ( i think that falls in the realm of common-sense)..
Anyway, interesting dialogue, here.. i wonder which way it will go, now.. Be well..
But it’s not only internal arts that require life commitment, people who train in external arts also train for life. My simple question was are the internal arts any proficient in bouts as an externalist with same number years of training. And I suppose they are. But what I dont understand is that how can “internalist” be anymore correct? Yes I know I’ll be bombarded comments such as oh go check it out for your self, take your own trainings, but I really was looking for introspection from those who already trains, even if it’s generic. Thanks.
Greetings..
But what I dont understand is that how can “internalist” be anymore correct?
Correct is based on certain standards.. so, whichever standards you adhere to will determine your perception of correctness.. As for my own standards/understandings, i tend to lean toward efficiency, control and “Wude”.. aside from personal preferrences, what works in the immediate situation is also high on my “correct” list..
But, we digress.. the opening question was directed toward the differences between internal arts and Kevin W. had a pretty good analogy.. Though, i might describe Tai Chi differently.. It is the superior tactician, drawing the enemy into traps, capitalizing on the most minor of mistakes.. Tai Chi manages “range” such that the enemy is likely to comitt the requisite small errors of judgment (balance) necessary to effectively close the “trap”.. Tai Chi relies on a few well trained “troops” (skills) and a supreior Commander (mind) to manage the battle… Tai Chi is much more like Commandos, why lug in so much weaponry when you can borrow from your opponent…
Anyway, this is good dialogue.. thanks, all and Be well..
Don’t mind me
Just popping in and caught this on the back end … saw just this page.
Bob, you are a wise man!
Sticky hand, this is my experince. I started with Isshin-Ryu as a kid – external as could be, though there was some internal in there … doesn’t everybody have it?
Anyway, from there to Hung Gar and Wing Chun. From there to S Mantis. Each stopp I learned soemthing. Wing Chun was an important stop – taught me a lot. I wouldn’t be able to understand my master now without out.
Anyway, what internal teaches me is not necessarily technique, but hot to get power. Not to generate power from a single limb, but from my entire body. Not punching with tricep or bicep, but punching with the weight of the entire arm, upper back, chest cavity – compressing it all! – using the leg, tucking the back to make it all straight so their is no breaking point. The advantage has been great. I would beat the hell out of who I was 6 months ago! Forget 3 years ago when I was doing Kung Fu.
It’s not for everyone. Some folks have a hard time generating the power at first. From what I see it usually is a matter of the cup being too full. Ya got to let go. Anyway, I also hear that most people have trained for a while before entering internal anyway. I alreday could fight – be it a low level – before internal. I still suck. My master throws me like a doll and I have 50lbs on him and am 30+ years his junior. There’s something to it.
You’re right. You got to go see it for yourself. I read about it. Saw the movies, bla, bla, bla. Then I fought an internalist and realised it was sling shot to bazooka technology. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like a fair fight. I had to go find an atom bomb.
Here’s an old joke but also debscribes the strategies of the three system.
If your opponent’s attack is a ball, Hsing I will go through the ball, Ba Gua will go around the ball and Tai Chi will become the ball.
I think Kevin’s is better but I thought I’d share.
As for the better tactition, I would prefer Ba Gua. Show a target and don’t be there when the attack arrives. I’m not talking walking circle stuff. It’s all about the change up.
Finally, for fighting, due to the nature of instruction, internal arts take a longer time to create an effective fighter. Why? Because the internal aspects are stressed from the beginning over applications.
Sure, I could teach a person to use tai chi movements and fight from day one. But they would be doing it externally. The worse thing is that they gain success with this method because it will detract from them moving ****her. This is the problem with most so-called “external” styles.
The reverse happens to Internal artists. They get so caught up in perfection, they forget that the real world rarely gives you a perfect scenario.
Personally, I like Hsing-I. It is simple in it’s movements so that one can concentrate on the depth of its internals. Once you have this basic understanding of the internals, it can be applied more broadly.