BT There are so many people in the martial arts period, who can’t
walk their talk on the mat. If any of these guys wanted to find you they would have by now.
Don’t let it bother you at all.
Peace, Pete
Hey Mike…Did you ever notice the difference in your form if you do it right after a solid session of pushing?
Walter:
It definately made it come more alive for me. I think the big advantage tai chi masters from along time ago had was that they actually fought with their art. So when they did their forms they ,could replay in their mind the real contact that had occured. That way their forms never jumped of the track from the arts original intent.
I’m not getting work up, its just my opinion, nothing more.
My major objective is not to discard the Chinese internal martial arts. They are my foundation. But I have done my share of searching for professional so-called internal masters, some of these so-called masters are world renowned.
When I was in Beijing this year, I met five so-called masters of the internal styles, two of these individuals were so called masters of Yang Style tai Chi masters. Now each of this Chineses individuals had great forms . But when it came time to utilize their internal method unrehearse, these indviduals could not apply one technique in a freestyle situation. Now thats sad.
Some body post and said in martial arts one should be kind. I feel what do kind, have to do with searching for the truth. I’m a cool and kind guy to tell you the truth, so I think.
But If I seek a person out , and then find out they can’t perform what they claim. I’m not going to lie and say the person is good in martial arts if he not.
I can tell you guys storys when I Visit japan and china of people I met in the so-called internal. Now if I was not kind, I would have post some of these So called masters names to go with the storys I post. I tell you no lie, I met a lot of so-called masters in china this year, and to keep it real, a good westen boxer or street fighter would take these so called internal masters out very easy.
So Far, I only told you guys one story of my meeting with Zhu Baozhen, So called Yin style master of beijing China.
The point of my thread is not to start a fight with anyone, I’m just posting my viewpoints of how I feel about the internal martial arts today. I never said everybody in the internal can’t fight. I’m such there are some people out there in the world that can. But so far in my search, I only met a few internal practitioners that I can count on one hand.
Think about it. Lets say you are at a Chinese kung fu tournament. Most of the time all you will see is internal practitioners do is display Forms and puch hands. You never see them do the sparring part of the tournament. What’s real funny is most of the time the sparring is light-contact at these Chinese tournament events.
Bottom line is, I’m all for the traditional way of Martial arts, Combat training. Now I never said I’m all for fighting and thats all I do is fight, fight, fight. I train in form, and I feel I’m very good at performing my BaGuaZhang sets, Better then most world renowned BaGua practitioners today.
I hear a lot of people in the internal talk of health over fighting. Now its true a person must first be healthy before they learn to fight. But today you will see many unhealthy looking internal instructors teaching. Most of these individuals have bad breathing and no kind of conditioning, they can’t even move well, but they tell you, they have power and strength. (Chi)
Most of them have a big gut, and can’t even do a basic front or side kick, because their stomach is to big and in the way. Many tell you they develop a ball of Chi in their stomach, thats why they gut is so big. I tell you guys I seen it all.
The bottom line is, a person must first train for health then for self defense. If a person is not healthy then there is no way you be able to train martials arts and be effective in a real figting situation.
But hey, you have individuals that think they can stop a person with the Yi and Chi only.
Anyway I made this thread to have open discuss open opinions about the so-called internal martials arts, as it is today. The internal martial art in my opinion undoubtedly lost it martial combat essence.
BT
Lao Qiang
P.S. crumble Whats so funny about my Chinese name? The name was giving to me by my Sifu, Xu Shi Xi of Beijing. if you knew the meaning of my Chinese name, You know its nothing funny about it.
BlackTaoist, now you should know the meaning of that, Because after all I’m not of Chinese descent, I’m of African descent. Blacktaoist may be a nick name, but the name have meaning, as every action I do in life. 
Black Taoist: Tried & True
For those of you foolishly bashing the Black Taoist, let me tell you that he HAS already proven himself to the MA community, and as for his Chinese name - that was giving to him by his Chinese master as a sign of respect and inclusion, so BT’s master has paid quite a compliment to him with this name!
Novelle, internal arts are not the problem – it’s these fake, so-called masters that are messing it up for the rest of us, as you have alluded to. I say to all KFO friends: if someone is a fake, you should expose them to save someone else from being bamboozled.
Novelle, I’d like to show you what Dachengquan could do for your already remarkable fighting skills. When I get back from my New Mexico seminar, I’m going to have you over at the house — you still drink Corona’s right? Long time no see…
Well, I’d just expand this discussion into Sturgeon’s Law:
90% of everything is crap.
Frankly I get a real kick out of you BT. You say it like you see it, and you even adjust if new info comes in. I’d wager your a lot mellower than most would take you for from the boards.
The internal styles frankly, have been a big joke. I’ve been lucky and seen top notch stuff at a young age - but when I shopped around to find some of it near me, all I found was hippy crap. ‘Internal’ kung fu has been subverted by ‘mystery’ schools and feel good bs.
There is more good kung fu available than I previously thought - but it is still extremely rare.
Dachengdao You are off the hook for a Chinese Guy.
I see your english is getting better as well as your name in the martial arts world.
Hey, you know I’m all for learning the real stuff from you when you get back. What I like to learn the most is your praying Mantis, After I seen you display it, I was hook. How is your New Mexico seminar doing? What are you teaching out there. Mantis or Dachengquan? I didn’t even know you was out in Mexio? is it hot out there?
I know I told you I was not going to post any more up here, But I had nothing to do at my job, so I said to myself what the hell. why not talk about what’s going on in the internal martial arts today. I didn’t mean to start a fight with any one up here on KFO,. But like always I get attack from a few posters, for my opinions of criticism. My god these guys act like I’m talking bad about their mother or something…LOL
Stay save.
BT
Lao Qiang
Dachengdao.
How are we supposed to KNOW good internal MA if according to BT even some of the “Masters” don’t have skill.
Who do we turn to learn good IMA and by WHOSE yard stick can we judge somebodies skill?
I am studying under a Chen TJQ Family lineage holder, does he have good skill how should I know it as his student?
Those are real and serious concerns, as how will the average joe in the road judge a good Sifu, when we get conflicting info on the same guy.
Who judges and standardises good internal skill?
Unless we get a testing and certification system within the MA NOBODY can be certain of anything, and even after that happens it is still open to misuse and fraud.
Cheers.
MonkeySlap Too
Frankly I get a real kick out of you BT. You say it like you see it, and you even adjust if new info comes in. I’d wager your a lot mellower than most would take you for from the boards
BT) Somebody that understand where I’m coming from. I keep telling these guys I’m one cool cat. If any of these guys ever come visit me, they will see that. The only thing I care about in internal martial arts is learning the real stuff, nothing more, nothing less. How do you guys think I feel , when I met some world-renowned so-called masters of internal methods in China that I use to look up to, and come to find out they had nothing but endless forms to give and show me. MAN I WAS HURT!!!
Thank God, I had some Chinese friends that hook me up to train with some Good internal practitioners in Japan and China. Now these internal practitioners may not have been world renowned as the ones I went to visit, but one thing for such theses chinese guys could rock. So theres is hope yet in the internal today.
Like I said before, I love the internal arts, I just hope more of us start going out fighting in competitions, so that other martial artists and people can see that we do have fighters in this generation that can use these internal methods in any situation, tournament competition or a real fight. (no hold bar) Not just talk about great skills and chi power.
But today all you see at these Schools and internal kung fu competitions is form, form, form. Like I said, its nothing wrong with practicing forms, but it will come a time when your form will have to take action. And when that happan I sincerely hope the god some of you, pra tice your sets in a practical form of combat.
BT.
Would you mind e-mailing pr pm-ing me the names of those good Internal Instructors in Japan.
I would like to check the list against who i consider to be good.
There are many good Instructors out here that hardly advertise themselves.
Thanks, in advance.
P.S.: Let me know when you come over again, maybe we can hook up for a chat.
MonkeySlap, you are way too kind. 90%. Try 99% is crap. I’ve looked at every school in my county for the past 7 years. Most of them come and go and fail but I keep looking. I am still at the same school because it is the only true internal I have found.
Are my standards too high?
Everyone, ignore the cr@p. They don’t last. They may keep trying, but cr@p is cr@p, and Karma lasts a long time. Look at Shergold and temple kung fu.
Keep looking until you find what you are looking for. If it doesn’t feel right, ask questions. If it still doesn’t feel right, move on. Trust your instincts.
Peace to all,
BSH
I like to Clarify something to you all. I never said I don’t believe in the results of training in the so-called internal fighting methods or Chi Kung training.
The point I was trying to make is there are very, very, very, few internal practitioners that can utilize any real internal power, or apply it in a real situation. I only witnessed few individuals that could apply their $hit.
Truth is Truth.
Peace
I have responses to some of these replies but alas I cannot, for my time is short. But I will say this,
My brother has been misunderstood by a few of you. Let me clear this up.
First and foremost this is about “Internal Martial Usage” and the lack of those able to do so. This is a fact.
My brother and I have been on this particular road for a while. And we do, really, take it to heart. Ba-Gua means that much to us.
Ba Gua is a martial Art. The people on this board are supposed to be martial artist. Do you know the meaning of Martial? Simplistic definition: WAR
Which implicates COMBAT.
Dong Hai chuan was known as a martial artist from the time of his youth until his death. Not as a Doctor or a monk/priest. He got his position in the Princes court because of this attribute.
He created Ba-Gua through years of experience and research.
The same holds true for Gen. Chen Wang Ting (Chen Village,
Tai Chi cir. 1700) And Gen. Yuer Fei (Xing- I, Eagle Claw etc..
The health aspect is a Side effect of true training, what passes for health today is psudo. People, at best are only getting 50% of the benefits. And I’m talking about the average practitioner, not the hobbyist who works at it even less, who more times than not, tries to portray themselves as an expert in the field, in particular on this board.
As for my Brother, As was previously mentioned he has proven himself, many times. Some public some not. We don’t talk crap!
Feel Me?
I’ll be back.
Peace
Maoshan
Maoshan.
Peace.
I don’t think that many people misunderstood your or BT.
Problem is that the MA Guys of old you mentioned practiced MA to earn a living, it was neither a past-time nor a hobby to them.
Yes, MA is War and Combat related but honestly how many people today need to rely on their MA skills.
Most of the time a bit of awareness and common sense will result in a life where NO fighting is ever needed.
Even Law enforcement and Soldiers need very little H2H Skills this days.
People can become obsessed with the healthm philisophical and the fighting aspect of MA training.
I agree that most people only get 20~30% out of the Art, but when and how would we train the Combat part and when would we need it for real.
IMHO, both you and BT gone a bit over the edge fighting in your quest MA need to suit the current surrounding and environment, if not …
I feel that you believe in a myth yourself about the masters of old anf their fighting prowess.
But I reserve this for a Poll I will start now.
Just some thoughts.
Novell,
Thanks for clarifying a bit. Maybe if you realized there are a number of us who get where you’re coming from you’d also realize that you don’t have to go to such extremes to get your point across to us.
And for those who don’t get it, why bother?
But then again, if you didn’t go to extremes, you wouldn’t be the BlackTaoist.
Or would you?
Peace out,
Walter
8circlepalms (Mike)
Greetings old Friend..
Nice to hear form you, i got your E-mail.. thanks..
My partner is Troy Provenzano, we are training at his house right now (i also have a monday night class at the Sage Center, downtown) and shopping for suitable facillities.. we want room enough for a full sized competition ring (Troy is training competition fighters) and also room for at least 2 ongoing classes of 30+ students each. We hope to get space suitable for remodeling with showers, lockers, etc..
I am initiating a Central Florida Tai Chi Club, inviting all to share insights, experiences and understanding.. (i will copy you with a flyer)..
The Temple has changed dramitically, Suzy is completely in charge, now. Whenever she dismissed me she told me she was “the boss”.. whenever i spoke with Master Chan he said, “it no matter, Suzy boss now”.. the rest i will leave for your imagination or chat with you later..
Back to the thread.. Tai Chi whenever discected (ie: only martial art, only health, only meditation, etc..) it loses its true nature. That’s where most people misunderstand Tai Chi, they only see a part of the whole. The Myth, like any myth, is rooted in events that defy common explanation.. regardless of how much the myth has been embellished, there is an uncommon experience at its core.. Do i believe that the current body of Tai Chi practicioners can acheive “mythical” status? Yes. Is it likely,? No. But, to dismiss it is irresponsible..
Be well.. Be real.. Be ALL that you CAN be, don’t let the lack of vision by others cloud your own…
Hippy Tai Chi Unite!
Actually I prefer to think of myself as a Rasta Taiji, but whatever, it’s time for me to stick a flower in your rifles.
Fake is very relative as is the rahter limited perspsective that Taiji is just about fightin’ nowadays. In the bing qi period, it was about fighting. It was hidden. Today, we have guns, so a lot of the discuusion about fighting is moot. All martial arts have to adapt to firearms. We have been doing so for several hundred years now (so get with the program y’all!) In the Boxer Uprising, they tried to use qigong mysticism to adapt. Today some people still drill gun disarms, something I’ve always been pretty skeptical about myself - if I have a gun, I don’t care what you study, you’re not going to take me with your empty hands. Anyway this is from that limited combat perspective. Most of martial arts has evolved into health cultivation and there’s nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. In fact, we need that first and foremost now.
Now I fully agree that the fighting aspects are the essence and critical to real understanding of the art, but I’ll argue that real understanding isn’t that important for the general public. Old people are using it for exerise. Injured and sick people are using it for rehab. That’s great! They don’t have to actually push. They already are. Of course, they don’t understand 99% of the art, but just 1% is positive for them. Don’t be so possessive of the teachings to deny them their practice.
There will always be those of us who practice Taiji for fighting. There will always be hardcores. But hardcores should not get so full of themselve to deny the nibblers and dabblers. They are the base of the pyramid, we are the apex. For us to get higher, they must get wider.
peace and love in the dancehall!
Shadow Dragon:
Yes, MA is War and Combat related but honestly how many people today need to rely on their MA skills.
Man, you most never been to some of the so-called ghettos or urban areas all over America. I know the area where I’m from if you are not from the area, individuals will step to you. I have seen many folks end up getting their $hit (money) snatch, even in the so-called good neighborhoods in America. So in my opinion your viewpoint is faulty in logic.
Honestly it is always best to be prepared for anything. You will never know when your time will come, where you have to defend yourself. After all we have Terrorism going on all over the world. Don’t you keep up with world events? Man today its better for people of all ethnic groups to be prepared with the hand Fu and Gun Fu.
If them poor people that died on that Airline, (911) knew martial arts, they would be living today. (God keep Their souls) After all the highjackers had box cuters, not guns. So my point is there is always a need for unarmed combat. And that means people need to focus more on a practical form of combat, that can adapt to any situation.
You never be prepare for any situation learning from unprofessional internal martil art teachers that can’t apply their $hit. If internal martial arts for health, is what these So-called internal instructors teach, Then they should not be advertising claims of martial skills.
Truth run over bull$hit all the time. The truth is training fighting is still in need today. Combat training was needed in the past, and it is still need today in this generation. The way things are going down in this world today, you may have to utilize the internal arts to defend yourself sooner then you may think.
Walter Joyce
Thanks for clarifying a bit. Maybe if you realized there are a number of us who get where you’re coming from you’d also realize that you don’t have to go to such extremes to get your point across to us.
I feel most people up here don’t have good comprehension skills. Because most people that can read and comprehen, can easy see the points I was trying to make.
But like always people up here like to turn my statements in to some misleading. Far a way from the point of the whole discussion.
The point of my whole thread is about so-called internal teachers & practitioners that claim they can apply their method in a unrehearse fighting situation. Truth is truth, there is only a few people that practice the internal martial art, that can apply it. Unknown or renowned there are few individuals that can fight with their $hit.
I don’t feel like I’m going to the extremes, I’m just posting my viewpoints, nothing more, nothing less. Its people up here kfo, that take my statements to their own enlightened extremes.
Truth is truth.
Why not practice martial arts because you love to practice martial arts? Why does there always have to be a reason? This is the fault of logic.
Guns: not the end of MA
Slightly off topic here, but I feel I’ve got to respond to Gene’s post
I’m a gun owner, and I shoot on a regular basis. I still see a great need for MA training, even in a world were guns are common. Here’s a few things to think about:
-
In Cali, and in many other states/cities, it is illegal for your average citizen to carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise. Hell, in CA I can be arrested for carrying a sharpened pencil if a cop is bored enough (no, I’m not kidding either). MA skill (for the moment) is perfectly legal to possess, at all times.
-
How far away from your “opponent” were you positioned at the outbreak of your last fight? 20 yards? 20 feet? How about Arms length?
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Ever try to pull a gun from a concealed belt/ankle/shoulder holster, ready the weapon, and take aim? Unless this is trained on a very regular basis, it can be a clumbsy, slow affair. Particularly when someone is punching your head.
-
Movies have suckered people into thinking putting a bullet between someone’s eyes is pretty darn easy. Heck, just hitting someone is pretty much a given at 15 feet, right? Test that theory at a range some time
It’s funny, 'cuz people on the MA boards I visit speak as though guns are the universal trump card. People on the gun boards aren’t nearly as confident in their guns or marksmanship under pressure.