Exploding the Myth of the So-called Internal martial arts?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
41

Reply to Shadowdragon

Hi! You asked some good questions regarding how to know a good master from a fake one. Sometimes this is very difficult for beginners, unfortunately, because they don’t know what to look for. On another thread, Woliveri brought this important topic to light and suggested some sort of licensing procedure or centralized training for masters, but as you can imagine this would be problematic in implementing and maintaining in a non-biased way. Personally I feel it is important for those with knowledge to expose the ones they know to be fakes, but who is qualified to throw the first stone? If I write down a list of masters in the NY area that I know for a fact are taking students for a long ride that goes nowhere, and it would be a long list indeed! - then I will have made a whole lot of enemies, and people will wonder who am I to pass this judgement on others. Students who don’t have to rely on martial arts as their livlihood have much less to lose by exposing the fakes, but are they in a position to really know who’s who? Novell is in a good position to talk straight and let you guys know the real deal, but why should he? Why should he stick out his neck to help when so many people like to dis him? (I’m not talking about you, Shadowdragon even though I’m responding to you.)
So this is the advice I will give you to help find a good master. Go in person to his class to see for yourself. Look for a warm heart. Watch his students, because they are truly a reflection on the master. Do they help each other out in class? Are they warm and friendly before and after class to each other, their master, and to visitors? Are YOU comfortable there?
Once you start taking classes (I know you have found a master already), the most important thing is whether your skills are changing. A good master will give you fast changing. How do you know whether your skills are improving? Push hands and sparring, as has been stated many times before.
Good luck with your training! Sounds like you have someone of high level, so you probably have no need for worry.

42

Hi,

well, fwiw, my opinion is that the world will not be a better or safer place if everyone becomes a trained fighter, or kiiller, let alone if everyone learns to enjoy it. As far as Gene’s post about guns, I think he was using them as a metaphor for how martial arts are applied in wars, i.e., combat where people really want to kill each other, not in “martial arts” practiced in schools, dojos and exhibitions. If any particular “martial art” were superior, every army would use it. The one thing that makes me laugh about these discussions is that the participants don’t really have anything against each other, certainly not enough to want to engage in anything like modern cqc. Every recruit is taght to hurt another person, permanently, and it doesn’t take 6 months. And, every one of them would say that “unarmed combat sucks.” But, there are a lot less opportunities and motivations for situations to get to that level. Oh yeah, there’s a lot of violence, road rage, crime, etc. It’s true, a gun is not an end-all or be-all, even when it’s available and loaded. However, if someone REALLY has a beef with someone AND has a gun, he would probably use it rather than his bare hands. And, with the right motivation, a bare handed untrained person will go against someone with a gun. That person also had better be committed. I’ve got nothing against training hard, and I also believe that it doesn’t qualify as “combat” --if it did, there’d be a body count. Thankfully, the only deceased persons mentioned on martial arts boards, in general, are old masters who have lived full lives. Imho, that is a good goal. Using the art to help others live longer is even better. Anyway, that’s my rant.
Respects,
Esteban

43

Amen, theblacktaoist.

I myself have been ridiculed and challenged repeatedly by guys here like Ego and Nick Lo who won’t dare face me in person.

Like you, I come from an old school Chinese kung fu lineage in which a guy had to be willing to lay it all on the line if somebody came for his head.

Whether or not a lineage is real or not, the techniques had better WORK. My sifu imparted this attitude to me, and yours clearly did to you as well.

My belief is that most guys in CMAs (especially the ones here that hate my guts) are all talk. To this end, I’ve flung open my doors and welcome any of them to a challenge match. Being that you’re of an authentic teaching yourself, theblacktaoist, you understand that this does NOT mean that I’m out for blood. Challenge matches are usually friendly, not meanspirited. Both sides usually win.

That said, I’d LOVE to touch hands with you when I return to New York. You’ll hear from me again.

44

Also . . .

Criminals have become more dangerous now than ever before.

Whether or not we train, they’re becoming more and more skilled and aggressive.

Especially to the women I teach, kung fu has become even more important now than ever.

Try telling a person that not knowing how to kill is good when she’s being dragged off to a car to be beaten and raped (like my student, who fought back successfully with the intent to KILL).

People (especially women) deserve the right to protect themselves. That’s why kung fu is still around today.

As far as “fakes” go, there’s one simple way to figure out if he is or isn’t:

challenge him to a friendly match - and FEEL what he can do.

Just this last weekend, people were coming up to me to test my hands at a demonstration.

Authentic internal stylists are always willing to test hands.

45

Novell is in a good position to talk straight and let you guys know the real deal, but why should he? Why should he stick out his neck to help when so many people like to dis him?

Dachengdao you know me, and my some of my teachers, better then any of these guys up here. So you know, I would not put out misleading information out Like most of these individuals are doing. Must people just can’t take truth, that’s why they try to from someway to attack my statements with some Bull$hit knowledge that has no logic.

The bottom line is, this thread is about exploding the Myth of the So-called Internal martial arts? Not a thread about Why you guys keeping making excuse to justify why you can’t utilize your martial art.

Fu-Pow:

Why not practice martial arts because you love to practice martial arts? Why does there always have to be a reason? This is the fault of logic

Thers nothing wrong with practiticing martial arts because you love it. But if a person is advertising their method a figting method, and can’t apply it in a situation. Then how do you see that as fault loqic? Today there are many individuals teaching internal martial arts, living in a esoteric world of Chi applications. But when they crooshands with a person, they can’t apply $hit.

Yes you are right, martial arts is not all about fighting. The thing martial art teach a person is to know yourself, and be yourself.

Now tell me, how many up here on KFO is truly being themself? Not many in my opinion.

I see a lot of people up here on KFO, as well as on other martial web sites, love to talk about Chinese martial Morality. (wude) now if they knew anything about wude, theses so-called followers of this martial core, would not be hiding behind these fake internet names. when I see these kind of people post, I know they don’t have any kind of courage (yang Gan) or bravery.

But thats the real problem today in the so-called internal martial arts, few individuals have courage or bravery to even take a step to training combat or sparring other martial artists for knowledge exchange.

they happy being just where they at, and thats nowhere as for martial skills. Most internal practitioners are mostly unskilled and talking theory and applications. Most of these guys talking never apply they method in a freestyle situation. I take truth over myths any day.

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HuangKaiVun
Everything you post is right on the money. Real hardworking internal teachers & practitioners will always be willing to test hand.

A friendly challenge is not going to kill anyone, and at the same time you can see if the person you are playing with have some kind of skill, and what skills you need to work out in your offensive or defensive techniques.

I read in many martial art Chinese books how many of the past internal masters take on all challenge to show the internal power they method had to offer. But looking at the teachers of this generation, I have to say them storys must have been a myth, because today its all about money with most internal teachers,.

I teach you a form you give me the money. Thats real internal arts. Don’t waste your time learning how to fight with the movements from the form, just feel good and enjoy the feeling of Chi, and Just keep giving me your money. I make you real healthy from training in my internal methods of feeling good, so if you ever get in a fight, you may not know how to use the moves in combat. so you may get beat down in a real fight or sparring other fighters. But you will be able to get up off he ground, because my forms makes you real healthy to be able to take a good beating feeling that good o Chi :stuck_out_tongue:

47

I agree with most of what blacktaoist said.

For me its simple as this, if the teacher cant fight and/or teach someone proper real fighting skills he has no bussiness in martial arts. One is not even doing a martial art in that case.
I’m glad i found people that can teach me a internal chinese martial art with a realistic fighting aproach. Becouse if i dindnt i wouldnt hesitate to quit the place i was previously training at (that was forms based, no fighting) for something else such as boxing or bjj.

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BT & Dachengdao.

Thanks, for your replies.

BT:
No, I have never been to those areas, but been in areas that were bad.
One Guy from NY told me rather walks through Central Park at night than drive through some of the neighbourhoods where I lived.

Even though I only encountered 2 muggings and 1 breakin in 10yrs there.

But I agree it is best to be prepare for all eventualtities.
IMO, you won’t know if your training and preparation amount to anything until you tested them in a REAL confrontation.
And than the next will be different from the last and thus NOTHING is guaranteed.

Dachengdao:
Thanks, yes I think I found a Sifu that I can be happy with, my current Sifu is Chen Peishan but I have been with him for only a very short time.

My previous Sifu were good MA and taught me a lot too, this now helps me with my Chen TJQ.
Cheers.

49

Greetings..

I hear much from many about the martial aspect of internal arts.. little about the other benefits.. Before i go on though, my door is always open to anyone for the sincere crossing of hands in the spirit of learning.. but, if you come dishonorably, “balance” will be the order of the day.. or, if you are familiar with the symbology, my feathers are spread open.. Now, in the spirit of the issues in this thread, what value is there in trashing or condemning the bulk of practicioners/schools.. Those who seek the fullness of Tai Chi (emphasis on “martial”) will find appropriate teachers, westerners are not mindless fools.. The “feel-good” group will find their niche’ as well..

I could be wrong, but it seems that there may be a bit of elitist predjudice circulating along with the “Chi” in this thread.. sort of the attitude that if you can’t kick-butt your Art is poor or worse yet, useless.. I hear much about how 90% or 99% is fake or fraud, but.. my senses tell me that that is just opinion not research.. I will tell you now, i could introduce you to certain people you have never heard of, that would leave your schools littered with bodies, if they chose.. but, they choose annonymity, small classes or individual students.. they have nothing to prove, they already “know”.. Harsh accusations and hasty judgments are poor signatures for those touting “internal arts”.. Oh sure, “i’m just tellin’ it like it is” sounds good, but, show me the research, not inflamatory rhetoric.. It has been my experience, here in central Florida, that the differing instructors refer students to each other according to the students’ goals and the instructors strengths.. and, i find that to be a responsible approach.. Each student finds their way, each instructor helps..

Just because one person chooses combat as their focus does not diminish the focus on health of another.. in Tai Chi there is room for everyone.. That’s its real beauty..

Be well.. Be real..

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The bottom line is, Internal martial arts is for combat. Not some health loving art as many people making it out to be today. As for tai Chi as a martial art today, its martial combat essence is good as DEAD in this generation. I base my opinions on experience of meeting many so-called Tai Chi players, or should I say push hands game palyers. Hey, lets see if you can push the other person off balance thats real internal power. What a joke these kinds of people are.

As for the health benefits in tai Chi, I don’t see many of their practitioners in good health. Many tai Chi practitioners today don’t have and kind of conditioning. Many are fat, have a big gut, can’t even move good. And if they move fast most of the time they are out of breathe. What’s so sad is, Tai people be always talking all this health bull$hit, when in fact their ass need to train more to develop their health and strength to a higher level.

Many Tai Chi people today think practicing Tai Chi forms all day is going to develop some kind of Chi power. What’s so funny to me, most of these Tai Chi people can’t even do ten basic push ups or sit ups.

But these people always talking like they are so healthy and fit from practicing Tai Chi. They have so much Chi, well where the hell is their strength. I foget their strength is so internal, that the power can’t be seen. most Tai Chi people in my view is a Joke to me. I only met a few good teachers that can utilize Tai Chi as it was apply like the masters of the past.

Like I said, most Tai Chi people today just talk about Theory, many of them can’t apply the theory in real combat or sparring. Like always they start talking about all this health and chinese martial morality $hit. But $hit, its not only just Tai Chi this is how $hit is in most of the internal styles today.

Practice the form my students, and you will developed the good old Chi running in your body, when you feel that you will know you can kill a man from a distance. So keep on dancing and while your dancing away with the feeling of Chi, keep giving me your money. What Fools some people are. :frowning:

I have nothing against Tai Chi, but truth is truth. Theres not much real tai Chi out there. Not even for health.

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I spoke of “challenges” and “friendly matches” because that’s my combative manner, but both Taichibob and theblacktaoist helped me realize that a better phrasing from me was necessary.

I now prefer to say “Ask a guy to show you what he can do, then see if he can do it”.

For example, my sifu Jiang Jianye is not a fighter and doesn’t pretend to be. What he does have is great body control and great health knowledge - and that’s what he imparts. Like my other great sifu, what he said he would show you he could DO.

Taichibob is absolutely 100% correct in noting that there are totally valid uses for the arts other than martial, and theblacktaoist is just as correct in saying that if a guy says he does something then he has to be able to PROVE IT via demonstration.

Hence I agree with both these men, though they come from different ends of the spectrum.

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BT

I understand your passion about keeping Taichi as a martial art but let me ask what aspect of Taichi training makes it martial?

I mean, in the past you have mentioned some Taichi teachers based in NYC as the ‘real deal’, my question is what makes these teachers different than the others. Sparring ???

If you think sparring is what separates fighter from non fighter, that may be incorrect. Sparring is not fighting just like form practice is not sparring. Sparring is good excerise and good for developing timing, distance and power. But these are really non factors in a fight since the outcome of most fights are result of who wants it more. Those who are willing to use any weapon, skill/nonskill and willing to fight to the end,.

But that just my opinion.

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Wow BT what a great thread!!!

I totaly agree with every thing that you have posted and think that its about time that the hippys were forced to realise that they do not own the Tai Chi (or any internal art) franchise.

BT

The bottom line is, Internal martial arts is for combat. Not some health loving art as many people making it out to be today. As for tai Chi as a martial art today, its martial combat essence is good as DEAD in this generation. I base my opinions on experience of meeting many so-called Tai Chi players, or should I say push hands game palyers. Hey, lets see if you can push the other person off balance thats real internal power. What a joke these kinds of people are.

The sad thing about your above comment is that most Tai Chi people I meet cant even push hands as its to “agresive”.

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wckf

If you think sparring is what separates fighter from non fighter, that may be incorrect. Sparring is not fighting just like form practice is not sparring. Sparring is good excerise and good for developing timing, distance and power. But these are really non factors in a fight since the outcome of most fights are result of who wants it more. Those who are willing to use any weapon, skill/nonskill and willing to fight to the end,.

Sparring is more than that, lots more.

It also lets you know what it feels like to be repeatedly hit in the head and it lets you know what it feels like to have to carry on and not give up when your shattered, with no energy left being hit ad are just plain scared.

It also teacher you so much that you are just not going to learn in any other way…how do you learn how to close to pushing hands range (controling your oponents hands/arms) and be in controle against a moveing resisting oponent who is trying to breack contact and punch you in the face or knee you?

It also teaches you so much about your self. wckf either you are not sparring at all or you are not sparring hard enough.

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I understand your passion about keeping Taichi as a martial art but let me ask what aspect of Taichi training makes it martial?

#1.The Individual. #2. mindset #3.practical form of combat

Your viewpoint on sparring I have to say you are dead wrong. As Liokault point out in his post, there is a lot more to sparring. How can you say sparring is not fighting. I know you must be joking right, I hope you are. Are you going to tell me just practicing Tai Chi forms is going to make you a good fighter, or are you going to tell me the good old push hands method is all you need. OK what other aspect of TaiChi training is going to perpare a person for combat other then sparring that you know of? Other then puch-hands. And rehearese combat drills.

Sparring is fighting, no matter how you put it. You can train different levels of sparring, from light contact to full-contact. The skill level will very depending upon the individuals back ground, strengths and preferences.

In Tai Chi and most internal methods, the form is utilize as a tool to teach internal practitioners the principle of Wu-Wei. Sparring is also a tool used to teach a internal practitioner how to apply this principle of Wu Wei under the stress of fighting.

when practicing internal forms a person can sit back and endlessly theorize, because there is no real person in front of you attacking. But its a whole different ball game, when you have a real opponent attacking you for real, you will have no time to sit back and endlessly theorize of what move from your form you will try to apply. You must just act, not think.

sparring also help a person over come their fears on a personal level, after a few months of unrehearse sparring with people of different levels, big, small, fat, thin, fast, slow, and different fighting methods, you definitely know how to adapt yourself to most situations. Forms can’t teach you how to adapt to unrehearse situations. But its a sad situation, that many people today think that forms can. That’s the biggests myth in the internal arts today that have a mass following of form slaves.

theses individuals are slaves of the forms, then the forms being slaves to them.

Peace.
BT

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Originally posted by blacktaoist
[B]

Dachengdao you know me, and my some of my teachers, better then any of these guys up here. So you know, I would not put out misleading information out Like most of these individuals are doing. Must people just can’t take truth, that’s why they try to from someway to attack my statements with some Bull$hit knowledge that has no logic.

I see a lot of people up here on KFO, as well as on other martial web sites, love to talk about Chinese martial Morality. (wude) now if they knew anything about wude, theses so-called followers of this martial core, would not be hiding behind these fake internet names. when I see these kind of people post, I know they don’t have any kind of courage (yang Gan) or bravery.
[/B]

Yes, Novell, I’m beginning to see why you told me you were going to stop posting in the first place - but I know you’re not the type to walk away from a fight, challenge, or problem. I also know that you know a lot more regarding who’s who in the MA world than even me. Plus you are always a straight shooter. Some people can’t take the truth, and prefer to live out their own little myths. You know me, I’m a peaceful person, but the only way you’re going to explode their myths is to beat it out of them!:smiley:

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Of course being attacked on the street is gonna feel different than having a sparring match, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t spar. A punch coming at your head is a punch coming at your head–to not do sanshou because you think the street is going to be different is a cop-out. I won’t say why you should do sanshou and what I think it’s all about because BT has done that already. Honestly, if you think you practice taiji or any other art “for real”, how could you disagree with what BT is fundamentally saying? Form is great for many things, including ingraining certain principles in your body, strengthening your body, and most importantly training mind-intent. But, at some point you have to take yourself and your intent into a situation where there is a chance you will get your nose broken or get knocked out. Even if you feel like you’re the baddest fighter ever in your form and you could waste anybody, the first time you do free sanshou will most likely be a big-ass wake up call (or at least for me it was). BT, keep up the good work.

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I disagree with you guys who say the wannabe “masters” are making the internal arts a joke.

Imho, the worst are the instructors who really DO know their stuff, but hide and deliberately mislead their students.

That is to say, these masters teach fake stuff and waste $$$ and more importantly, years of a serious student’s time; all the while showing off THEIR skills, leading students on with skills they’ll never get.

59

Muppet-- These days there’s probably very little of that going on. I’m sure there are still some teachers who reserve certain things for advanced/indoor students (actually many teachers do this), but I doubt there are many out there that are really good but deliberately mislead students all the while taunting the students with their own skills. Did you have a bad experience with this?

From what I’ve read and heard (I’m just a beginner and have seen basically nothing first-hand) there are way more fraudulent “masters” out there who are just jokers waiting to take your money than there are skilled, genuine ones who teach fake sh.it to hard-working students for their money.

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The academics killed gung fu.

The academics made it ok to collect knowledge for knowledge’s sake. Why earn the skill when you think by having the knowledge of a skill it gives you the ability to use said skill? Do this over a few generations and see where the ability goes. Disseminate info over a period of time using book and theoretical knowledge without a basis to back up the knowledge and see what happens. You get today’s representation of gung fu. This isn’t just “internal” pais , its across the board.

The Wet Noodle Method of Niles Crane Tie Chee™ prevails!