I was wondering what people’s opinions are on the effectiveness of tai chi in real-life combat situations. Does anyone have any experiences of it being really useful and effective? I myself had two or three lessons about a year ago, but then the club I was in stopped running.
A while later a friend and myself were engaged in ‘friendly’ combat and as he went to hit me in the face, I saw my arm arc out and block the attack automatically, without me even thinking about it. Is this the sort of way tai chi can work in real situations?
Although, of course, this was not a ‘real’ confrontation - but has anyone found that tai chi can prove useful in that the practioner finds it easier to remain calm when engaged in real-life combat, and does it really make you extremely fast when you are well experienced in this martial art?
Well there are NO BLOCKS in Tai Chi so maybe what you did what more likely to be a reflex action.I have limited experience in Tai Chi and it has saved my bacon a few times. I feel comfortable with it as a martial art and as self protection in life.
It is a while since I did those tai chi lessons, and I can’t even remember what style it was - I think it was Yang, and I was doing a 16 move short-form.
Anyway, there is one particular move that I was told was designed to allow you to grab the arm of an attacker, as they go to strike you, and divert their energy away form you - or something like that. The block that I found myself doing (the way my arm arced) was exactly the same as a segment of this particular move. Do you think that although the move was not originally designed as a block, a small segment of that move proved perfect as a block for me on that particular occasion? I ask this because I have never found myself blocking a punch in this way before, reflex or otherwise.
I have a tape (in chinese which I don’t speak) of a guy who does a tai chi movement like 10 times then shows the application on this fellow in a yellow sweatsuit. The applications themselves are sort of mediocre by modern standards, but you can see where he’s coming from with it. Wish I could tell you the name of the tape!
As a newbie to the forum I’m not sure how economical I need to be with the advice as I see a lot of styles on here, many proclaiming to be self defence orientated.
What I can tell you my friend, from personal experience at least, is that Tai Chi is one of the most lethal yet passive of the Chinese arts.
All the moves in Tai Chi are combat effective but require years of learning to nurture.
I have been a practicioner for 8+ years and believe that I have learned the true basics, namely: The art of warding off (some may call this blocking but I liken it to a re-direction of force), strong legs and an almost ‘root like’ stance. A powerful punch, strong grip, and a 360 degree defensive security which is difficult to break.
We have ‘crossed palms’ with many other styles and have found the Tai chi art to be very effective against other schools of the chinese arts.
The main plus against other styles (including a self defence class we ‘played against’) was that their aggression was easily neutralised.
As an example we once crossed plams with a Sensei of Ju-Jutsu (yep I know it’s Japanese ) who played attack almost as a shoot fighter. This man simply had nothing to grab hold of; as fast as he thought he was, he wound up cartwheeling and running out of steam whilst Sifu barely broke a sweat.
In the short term, and for self defence, Ju-Jutsu is classed as almost street fighting, so I can say on this occasion that this 3rd Dan didn’t fare too well.
The effectiveness of Tai Chi Chuan will only become apparent after several years of training, but if you are prepared to stick with it you will reap a fine whirlwind if and when the time comes to use it.
I have been lucky, I’ve never had to use mine in the street, but I’ve thrown people around in the kwoon and can testify to its effectiveness.
Kind Regards.
without me even thinking about it. Is this the sort of way tai chi can work in real situations?
Every martial art works like this. Long, boring repititions of the same basic movements make it so you can automatically apply the movement without thought.
does it really make you extremely fast when you are well experienced in this martial art?
The idea is sung makes fast. Sung roughly means relaxed, but not completely relaxed. A major part of taiji is being sung, so yes.
Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey Well there are NO BLOCKS in Tai Chi so maybe what you did what more likely to be a reflex action.I have limited experience in Tai Chi and it has saved my bacon a few times. I feel comfortable with it as a martial art and as self protection in life.
As far as I know TJQ does not practice blocks as blocks.
Here is a theory I once heard, don’t know if it is true though:
Chen TJQ was developed against armored opponents thus Chen TJQ tends to twine around the limbs and not do straight attacks & blocks.
Chen members did protect Caravans heading do the middle east.
Yang TJQ on the other Hand was modified for the imperial court where NO armour is worn and thus is more linear than Chen TJQ.
But than we don’t really know all the Arts that YLC really studied either before and after Chen Village and what impact they had on the final Yang style.
Also at the imperial Court he would have come into contact with many other MA Masters & styles being taught there.
hmm if i remember rite Yang changed his style to suit Imperial court so rite now this is known as Imperial Yang style.
anyways…
effectiveness of tai chi is always been talked about, not much ppl can utilise it , those who can are surrounded with controversies…
frankly i havn’t seen anyone by myself…
i do taichi too n i hav found that i hav used some of it’s principles while sparring(warding off, soong(hopefully)) with some Taiji QinNa but i won’t give exact credit to taiji about my fighting ability.
i m kind of person who can make TaeBo(no offence :D) works,
but i think if u learning Taiji as Martial art then u should fight with it(no matter how many times u get squished, crashed)
may be adapting to taiji principles will take time but still if u can’t learn fight then u shouldn’t say that u r learning a MA.
-TkdWarrior-
Well the reason wht Tai Chi doesn’t have blocks is based upon it’s first principle of NOT to use force against force. By doing this one loses sensitivity and its just brute Li against Li. Tai Chi advocates joining sticking following and then issuing. A block doesn’t fit in with this idea due to it truncating the whole unbroken operation.
In some of the advanced practices of traditional Northern Chinese martial arts, the action taken or technique becomes both offensive and defensive. The block also is the strike and requires great ting jing skill and chan si jing skill. Flexibility becomes much more than holding your leg up high and touching it as is so often seen in the performance of Yang’s taijiquan.
None of this is necessarily unique to Yang taiji. In upper levels of bagua the the strike and block become one.
However, taiji roots are grounded in long fist and at lowever levels of practice blocks are utilized. Yun shou, wave hands clouds is an good example.
Yang taijiquan is but one of many fine systems developed as a Northern Chinese martial art system. You might be surprised to find that its high level techniques are not unique and found in other arts. The uppper levels of other arts have all received far less exposure than taiji (or at least what has been written about Yang’s taiji).
There is no “mystery” in Yang’s taijiquan, just refinement of basic skills into advanced levels.
The blocks are in process to open up the chest and heart area and the final move is a strike to the heart. It requires you to use both sides but moving forward. Its technique is very similar to that found in a particular pi gua movement.
But, you know what? Its impossible to do this over a post and I can see this is going to turn into a discussion as to what constitutes a block and whether its “really” applicable and who used this in a fight and who is the tough guy etc. etc. etc..
Its not that important and its best simply to let a sleeping dog lie.
I buy the Chen story line with full knowledge that the historical evidence will never conclusively prove the origins of taiji.
Jarek’s site has a comparision of longfist pao quan and Chen’s movements, I have seen some of tai zu quan, the posts are a couple of other places and I swallow, hook line and sinker, Henning’s writing on the inablity to prove Zhang Sang Feng’s existence. I also accept Jiang Fa’s relationship to Chen Wang Ting fully knowing that there may be other explanations.
However, after reading through JAMA, Chen Style research Journal, TaijiquanJournal, China Review I conclude its the most probable explanation. Beyond that, I find no reason to attack any others beliefs and I am still open to some finding that completely overturns it.
But like I posted previously, its really not that important. I happen to like Chen and Yang taiji a great deal. Although I have walked through Wu style, long form, I can’t say I know it. Wang Pesheng’s material strikes me as being a very good represenation of Wu style. I believe you practice the Wu style of Dan Docherty (?) and his book was also very good regardless of what he may or may not believe about Chen, Yang or the origins.
I have no more bones to pick with anyone’s theories on the origins of taijiquan but for me, the longfist (tai zu quan, pao quan , hong quan and the 32 postures found in General Qi???) Chen Yang Wu whatever, suits me well and I just don’t find taijiquan to be as unique as I once thought it was.
Besides all this, most of my time is now spent in trying to understand and practice the basics in bagua. However, I still have a great deal of respect for all of the taijiquan systems.
Wardoff or block…I think your both talking about the same thing.
In an age where Taijiquan is infected by hippy loving peacenicks who think Taijiquan is only good for making their gonad’s warm, people should be getting the word out on just what it is.
Maybe this way the anti-war, veitnam protesting, dope smoking, ex-communist proffessor wanna-be’s, will drop the word quan from their taiji.
Taijiquan in all styles possess just about the same techniques as Bagua or Xingyi. It is also just as mean and nasty. No, it isn’t a Quanshu based on the rollback principles or absorbing the attacking force. Nor is it a defensive art like some percieve.
So, to the poster of the original thread. Taijiquan is very effective. To an outsider, in its truer forms (regardless of style) its looks a lot like greco roman wrestling with a lot of wicked kicks, strikes, sweeps and throws going on. Tactics normally are based around attacking then closing the distance through some sort of bridging technique. Or deflecting an attack in a way where the distance has been bridge by the opponent for you. Here at this close range taijiquan excells because of toushou and chin-na (not to forget the use of fajing in the close quarter striking and kicking to include elbows and knees etc…).
It’s an in-close nasty way to fight, period. No other way to say it! Somebody figured out that most fights are prone to clinching and devised a nasty system around this concept.
If half the story is true about Yang Luchan walking around Beijing (the mecca of martial arts in the east) with a sign around his head, saying “Bring it!” to anyone who dared. Hmmm… This doesn’t sound like a peace loving guy to me. If the story is even a 1/4%true…He must have been a real bad azz and knew it, and was out to make a name for himself.
Yes Taijiquan is effective. You just will have to go down the rabbit hole to find this out. Don’t worry about the fat soccer moms and the wanna-be know it alls, they won’t follow. ****t !!!Most of their instructors don’t even know where to look for the rabbit hole…This includes most of the Han Chinese instructors that I’ve incountered too…
So, to the poster of the original thread. Taijiquan is very effective. To an outsider, in its truer forms (regardless of style) its looks a lot like greco roman wrestling with a lot of wicked kicks, strikes, sweeps and throws going on. Tactics normally are based around attacking then closing the distance through some sort of bridging technique. Or deflecting an attack in a way where the distance has been bridge by the opponent for you. Here at this close range taijiquan excells because of toushou and chin-na (not to forget the use of fajing in the close quarter striking and kicking to include elbows and knees etc…).
Yep…good description. Taiji as I know it is all about joint locking/breaking. The key is not resisting your opponent and just let him tie himself up. You just lead him into it. In addition you can escape Chi Na because you never resist. Its like the old story of the snake avoiding the eagle. And on top of that you have the “Short power” strikes with the elbows, fists and knees. And also throws and crowding/breaking your opponents structure.
The key to all of this though is that it is never done using muscular force against muscular force.
Simple on the surface but very difficult understand and pull off properly.
Many people don’t realize that Taiji is as violent and nasty a martial art as they come. In some ways worse for the opponent than other more well known “kicking and striking” arts.
It’s just a different way of using your body to do it.
The “hippy” Taiji you guys describe is more beneficial in a Chi Gung kind of way.
) who played attack almost as a shoot fighter. This man simply had nothing to grab hold of; as fast as he thought he was, he wound up cartwheeling and running out of steam whilst Sifu barely broke a sweat.