"Fighting"

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

Greetings, Fellow Pilgrims..

As i read through these threads there seems to be a variety of opinions surfacing at differing points, i am hoping to get an overview of personalities and perspectives with this question..

Someone made a statement that the only way to really know is to Fight.. My question is this: During class, even in “full-contact” sparring, we pull some techniques, we refrain from others (ie: elbow to face, knee to groin, full on Chin Na, twisting neck snaps, etc..).. with this in mind, is there the suggestion that we look for an opportunity to test these weapons/techniques.. do we look for the “fight” so we can “know”.. or do we practice with the hope that we are never forced to use these brutal tools against fellow beings..? I confess to a youth of opportunistic forays into seedy places looking for a good challenge, but.. That was many years past.. now, i feel quite certain that i can discern the value of application without testing it in combat situations.. Where do we draw the line between practice and self-initiated agression.. if i search for a fight, even-though i may not “start it”, who is the aggressor ?

Just a curiosity of goals, no intention of starting a debate.. no one’s right/no one’s wrong.. we simply deal with the consequences.. some desirable/some not..

2

My “fighting” now consists of get togethers with other martial artists. I have not fought at my new school. It’s all new material (internal) and I’m learning – though we put the gloves on for full power punching drills (shielding, shieling/hitting).

My fights are with old buddies who know I’m going to CHinatown to study with Master Chan Bond now. They want to taiste and I want to test.

It’s actually pretty loose. Head gear, gloves (not boxing but bag gloves) That’s it. No kicking. Elbows and everything esle goes. We break ourselves – we are friends. Everyone has at least 6 years experience and we know when we have and when we have been had.

It’s not 100% real, because of the gear and because of no kicking, but its a great way to test applications. I have a few brusies on my arm this morning from just such a run in Sun. I enjoy this. We don’t share technology. We do some Chi Sau or fighting, then grab a bight to eat.

I’ll tell you this, if nothing esle it makes me comfortable facing off with someone. Because even without the head gear I beleive I am much more loose and comfortable facing incoming blows. It taught me that you have to deal with the strike, its the only way. If you flinch, you loose – and that means taking more blows. Deal with it, some how: jam it, redirect it, yield to it, whatever you do you have to DO IT and keep your focus there, not cowar under pressure.

To me, fighting is priceless. And its obvious who has or does and who hasn’t or doesn’t. These are MARTIAL arts that we are studying and devoted to. Talk and typing here is nice, but …

In the end, I even enjoy this feeling I have right now. My arm’s a little delicate from some blows, but it feels good. Better my forearm then my face. The guy had a longer reach, I wanted to be sure. I learned.

I’m 27, will be 28 in May. Figuere the next 5 to 6 years is the time to go all out. I want to go fight in some big events perhaps in a year or two.

3

Martial arts, IMO, is about understanding of self, about peace and sacrafice, and about true knowledge.

Does brawling lead to any of these things?

4

I have to disagre. I don’t know the rechniques you are learing, but snapping arms, necks and spines, strikes to the throat and collar bone, kicking out knees – I do not see this as a “love they neighbor” sort of practice.

This is one of ym biggest BEEFS with martial artist. Yes, there is that element to it. One should find themselves if you may through the study, but explaining that or talking about that is a waste of time: Those who know do not say, those who say do not know.

Your spiritual development should habve begun before your martial training, been there if you never entered martial arts and continue if you stop. Two seperate things.

All this focus on ascending to the heavens and walking at one with the wind is a bit of Bull $hit if you ask me. What good is it if you can’t stop someone from walking up to you and rubbing your face in a pile of dog $hit – because that is exactly what could happen if you face off with someone of a higher level; you can;t stop them from emposing their will on you.

That is what martial arts is to me. It allows me to be me, myself. You disagree? Fine. We can talk about it. Try to manhandle me to see it your way, and I’ll attack you. Not defend myself. Too nice. I will not just put up a shield to defelct your blows, but get in there too and give you soemthing to think about, see that one should not force themselves on another because of size or sex. Too me, that’s martial arts.

I think when one gets to a certain comfort level with their technies, problems don’t happen. One carries themselves confidently and does not look like a victim, a target. People will speak to you with respect, because you treat them that way as well. There will always be fools, drunks, punks, and that’s why we train more, harder. To be honest I don’t fret people on the street so much any more – unless they are much bigger and denser then myself. I want to fight fighters, who train to fight fighters. Then its a matter of technique – skill, not toughness.

BUT, I know this is unpopular. That I should put down the gloves and chant. Perhaps buy a wushu steal blade that couldn’t hurt anyone and jump around. Maybe do some splits.

That’s not for me. I want to keep it real, like the men who inveneted these arts – keep it for combat.

5

EvolutionFist,

So where dose the internal part come in?

I guess it depends on the style, sounds like a lot of clashing and real use of LI (muscular power) hey if it works use it, can’t argue with that. :slight_smile: but i don’t quite understand how one would consider it internal usage or work. :slight_smile:

In a sense anything that is done contains elements of both. I think when people talk of it they get confused by the level that (as I understand it) IMA works at. That would be what is called internal. Not the obvious use of movement, speed and strength to overcome the opponent.

If you where to divide things that work, some would work directly against the body others would work against the mind or sprit.

I think you would find most of the IMA stuff directed at working directly with things like the others perception, balance, timing, intent, and more. Using these things enables one to use the others energy and intent for the most part.

Being able to work on these below a conscious level makes the practice and applications of movements very different. At least this is what I have found in my own practice.

The mind set of some one seeking to blend and become part of the others movement is very different then one seeking to dominate and control the other.

note: the bases for my obsevations come from TC, the other IMA arts might view things a little diffrently/ these things are from my understanding at this time, subject to change :wink:

6

I’ve been having success with the opening of the Taiji form. Forgive me, I do not know its name. Just the up down of the arms, sort of like karate kid paint the fense. It takes very little force/muscle to get inside a straight and lift if just enough. I have found that I can almost go into the palm strike right away, and that the intention of the move deflect the blow just enough, the other hand shielding the chin. From there, the shileidng hand shift to continue to cover as I go in further.

This method is a bit straight in, but I do not consider it force on force, I consider it good technique. Agressive? Yes. I’m still young and use more force then my master would agree with. But I have a strong external background and am slowly trying to meld the two – its only be 13 months but good progress has been made. Same technique works well against hooks I’m sure you know. Just need to round it out a bit.

Now, if its too strong, well then I change, let the blow move the entire structure, without affecting its shape – the hidden kick! … the back leg … changing palms … proper shielding – things come into play.

I’m in a wierd place right now. I am not 100% internal, I do use force. But my teacher I believe would not disagree with that 100% either. Sayign that the poeple push hands and say, “Relax, relax” and then throw them across the room. One must be relaxed in their striking and movement, but not in their intent. We are not sowing a quilt, we are in battle. So I relax the waist, the shoulkders, but I keep my shielding strong, and let what happens affect the change.

I would say this is aproaching internal… though I’m not there yet.
That opening I mentioned, the up down with the arms and the squating, is also my favorite internal excersice, it is the one that gave me my first “internal” experience. It is also my favorite palm, quick, relaxed and easy to pull off from an extended position – in that it can follow another strike without needing to be loaded.

I am enjoying the internal greatly. I feel like a white belt and everything is exciting and new.

7

PS, I agree one needs to blend with the aponant. I learned that from Wing Chun – chi sau. But I believe it shouldn’t look that way. From the initial conact one should be able to read the other well enough, make the change, and finish the job. Of coarse if the other is good, he will do the same, so maybe there will be one check of each other first, then one will solve the equation.

8

EF -

We have had this debate before, and I understand where you are coming from, but my previous post was in response to the original question, not your statement.

I know you think that the martial arts are for fighting, and by now I’m sure you know I think that is shallow and sad.

I think that if you look deeper into your internal art and try to get into the minds of the founders of the internal arts as we know them today, you will see that they too looked beyond fighting, beyond form, beyond technique.

I hope you will too.

9

Quite contrary – I allready do. I love the sea, I’m a surfer. I love redaing, poetry, am in fact writing a book. I’ve done volunteer work in the community, the last one, Make A Wish Foundation. I organized a temporary tattoo stand with stickers for the kids.

I am a Taoist, if one could clame such a title. I’m just me being me, trying to do the best I can in this world and help out when I can, and try even when I can’t.

With that said, that does not belong here. For I am also a martial artist. This is a martial arts board. I think you are forgetting these men we spoke of were monks, or Taoist recluses, they were holy men – who fought. We are not monks, I’m quite sure the “abbot” of SHaolin USA is not a monk either, or at least does not behave like one from what I have been told. I have seen a monk in NY toss his prayer beads aside like a rag. Would a good Italian Christian do that with rosearies? Yet alone a priest?

Seperate the two. You are not a monk, this is not shaolin. When on the streets, use your kind personality to avoid trouble, yelp out, smile alot. But when attacked unprovoked, become like a demon and do some bodily damage, give them some tough love – because the next guy they might attack may not know how to defend themself properly. It could be The Way placing them before you for both your benefit.

I’ve never hurt anyone seriously, ever. And I’m proud of that. I’ve never even kicked someone when they were down or followed through once I gained serious control. No need to. But, to be able to is important, because I’ve never been attacked with a knife, by two guys at once. And if I was, I’d go for the throat in a heart beat.

10

Well, then it seems we are actually in agreement.

:slight_smile:

11

i don’t go all out when i spar, but i learn what could have worked had it been an all out situation. like with the elbow to face. i won’t go implanting my elbow into anyones jaw, but in sparring, if i’m in the right position, i don’t throw it, but i know that in that instant i could have used my elbow. when i shadowbox later, and work on the weaknesses i had during sparring, i also work on doing that exact scenario again (where i could have used the elbow), but this time i throw the elbow full force.
so hold back in sparring, but see the opportunities. and shadowbox full force later.
one of my kf brothers will throw the elbow in sparring, but stop an inch before contact. this shows the other guy, “look what you almost ate”. i don’t agree with this tactic, cuz it means you have to stop your power which may create bad body habit if you spar alot, and it shows a need to show the other guy, “look, i had you”. i see that as a bit of an ego thing. i don’t know how other schools are, but i have quite a few egos in my school who take sh!t personal, so it’s better for me to not even go there, and practice full force on my own.

12

The group I fight with aproaches it the same way, give or take someone having a bad day here or there.

I think its hard finding training partners that one can relate to, TRUST and respect. I wouldn’t call these few guys my FRIENDS, but, at the same time, I know they are there for me and vis a versa. Its a unique relationship and one I value. Not as often as it once was, we’ve all been busy: training, working, ect. but that one phone calls is always welcomes: “Hey, feel like chi sauing.”

Everyone is very polite. Chi Sau invitation = bring gloves and head gear.:slight_smile:

13

T’ai chi is a self defense art.

14

Greetings..

Thanks for the input.. i am honored by the depth and sincerity of your replys..

“Tai Chi is a self defense art”

I tend to view that a a confinement of a much misunderstood concept.. “Self-Defense” is not limited to MA, i defend myself from illness, from poor habits, from dishonorable actions, from insincerity, from the issues that degrade quality of life..

Indeed, MA self-defense is a core issue, just not the only core issue.. Certainly, i too have engaged in full-on no gear sparring , each participant pulling only when long-term damage would be the result.. but, we matured, we learned, we moved beyond needing proof that the systems worked, we know it works.. what i need to know now is that “i” work.. as a teacher, as a neighbor, as a fellow human..

i suppose my original question should have been: Is fighting the “proof” that Tai Chi works? or, is living fully, with clarity, and without fear.. ?

Be well, friends.. life is too short and rich to focus on One thing, experience the richness of it all..

15

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
i suppose my original question should have been: Is fighting the “proof” that Tai Chi works? or, is living fully, with clarity, and without fear.. ?

I think fighting ability is just one of the aspects that develop from correct Tai Chi practice.

But, IMO, ultimately Tai Chi should be expressed in anything you do and in any action your perform.

I think that the road to reach this goal is via the martial side with it’s associated health/mental benefits, but this is not the final stage of where you can go.

In the end you should be able to deflect/neutralise an attack, before it even reaches a physical level.

Just my 2 Cents worth.

16

I agree with EvolutionFist: you can not take Martial out of MartialArts. There are other ways of reaching enlightenment, if that’s whay you’re concerned with.

"A powerful warlord was riding through a village. Many people got out of the way, lined the street and bowed their heads. One, a zen monk, did not bow. ‘Don’t you know who I am?! I could cut off your head and not even bat an eye!!!’ ‘Don’t you know who I am?’ replied the monk. ‘I could let you cut off my head, and not even bat an eye.’

Was this guy a martial artist? May be yes, may be not. Can you remain serene under a furious assault? Not me… But if I could, I’d be like that monk. And if I could also take it and then give it back, I’d be a martial artist.

But this is a strange topic for the nei jia section… something I’d expect to see in the ‘hard kf’ threads. What you describe, EvolutionFist, does not sound very internal. Just because you mimic a move (or many moves) from an internal form, doesn’t mean much. You have to DO them with the internal ‘flavor’.

How to fight with ‘internal flavor’? Why don’t taichi/shinyi/other guys spar in tournaments? (push hands isn’t the same) Would they look like the ‘regular kf guys’ if they did?

17

By no means am I claiming to be “internal” – not yet. I have something like 17 years of external background and have been doing E-chuan for 13 months.

I would suggest however holding off judgement from an internet post alone. Have you seen my technique? Have you seen me fight? Of coarse I do not appose force with force, but look to gain position while absorbing, gain a pushing angle, ect. This is understood.

But, at the same time, I am not “Relax, Relax, Relax” while doing pushing hands. I’m not tense, but at the same time, I do give some resistence, you can only come in so much. If you continue, I hold the position (shield) and move my body. I would say 85% of Taiji guys I see collapse themselves on the 1,2,3 pushhands start up. Look at the Taiji. There is a point where the two conflict. Yes, give, but not always. YIN and YANG.

As for TaijiBob, it was agreat pleasure making your aquaintence here. I have no doubt that these internal arts work. Seeing my smaller, older (wiser) master in action, there is no doubt to that. Also, nothing soft about the way he beats my 27 year old body. I don’t consider myself bad, but I feel terrible in his presence – the level difference is rediculous.

As for me, like I said, I know it works, I just need to make it work for me. Maybe I’m pig headed, but to me, that means going out time and time again, testing, refining, asking questions and then going and testing again.

I hope I will be at that level one day. For now, I’m always open to cross hands (NY guys?). I don’t mind taking the lumps from better guys in an effort to learn.

18

In taking on the taoist (t’ai chi) lifestyle, it would be wise to strive for a level of excellence in all of its aspects.

19

TaiChiBob - Fighting

After almost 30 years in hard-style karate/Tae Kwon Do and doing nothing but forms and fighting I felt I needed a change/maybe a higher level. The change was Chen Tai Chi and looking into the internal aspects of the art. I feel I am on the right path. Practicing Lao Jia and Pao Choi with intent is all I require. With Qigong practice, I have come a long way. At 55, if attacked, I am either going to be victor/all over the street. No time to think just act. Thanks for the good question TaiChiBob. Train well.

                            Damian
20

Some very good points overall going on here, but there’s a pattern emerging which has only served to add to the confusion so far. It should be a) learned for the first time, or b) kept in mind (whichever applies) that Taiji and Taijiquan are not the same thing. I think mistaking these two for each other is at the root of some of the apparent disagreement between certain posts. They are not identical…by definition, one is a subset of the other.

Taiji is a Taoist concept which can adopted/acknowledged/applied to any area of one’s life entirely regardless of whether one practices Taijiquan or ANY internal art, or any martial art at all, for that matter. Likewise, it is possible, especially at introductory levels, for one to practice and even excel at Taijiquan without practicing the Taoist concept of Taiji in any other area of one’s life.

Taijiquan is a fighting art, first and foremost. Those who don’t understand this most commonly simply do not understand the basic difference between Taiji and Taijiquan. The simplest clues are provided in the nomenclature. “Taiji Quan” refers contextually to a style of fighting based on or named after “Taiji”. Had it been constructed from its origin entirely of physical motions which reflect the Taoist concept of Taiji (which it wasn’t), it STILL would not BE Taiji. It would remain a fighting style based on the concept of the Taiji. In actuality, Taijiquan doesn’t even enjoy THAT level of Taoist purity. It existed as Chen Gar for many many years before Taoist concepts were infused into it. Heck, the Chens themselves didn’t even give in and regularly refer to their art as Taijiquan until the 1960’s. Chen family style came from Buddhist roots, not Taoist, and the system was purely and simply a fighting art for the protection of the members of the Chen village.

Modern American pseudo-Taoist language regarding “being in balance with everything” and “fighting without fighting” includes an implied connotation of non-violence which did not exist in the art of Taijiquan up to and including most of the 20th century. In fact, this philosophical difference between the teachings and admonitions of Taoist philosophers and the family of Yang Lu-chan may have been one of the factors in Yang’s reluctance to accept the term “Taiji Quan” as a name for his art. Yang’s wu de is the stuff of legend and his mercy in combat is an inspiring tale. Yet Yang himself was unapologetically a fighter. Perhaps not with the same cultural connotations of immaturity, insecurity and basic thuggery that that term includes for modern Americans, but a fighter nonetheless.

If a modern practitioner wishes to practice the concept of Taiji or any other Taoist concept in his/her life in any or all contexts, that is up to the individual. However, such a person should not confuse the practice of Taiji, in whatever context, with the practice of the martial art of Taijiquan IN THAT one is still a subset of the other. If one is uncomfortable with the terrible violence contained in the martial art of Taijiquan and finds it incongruent with one’s practice of Taiji as a whole, perhaps avoiding the art may be appropriate. Attempting to resolve that perceived incongruence by pretending that the martial art of Taijiquan DOESN’T include that extreme violence is merely self-deceiving and accomplishes nothing.