I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?
It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.
I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point…any thoughts?
this is the short but complete answer for the total evolution of tai chi
-doing forms slow and smooth was common in longfist systems for beginner training
-supernatural powers was common part of snake oil kung fu
-yang luchan failed the imperial exams but made enough friends to join the retinue of prince duan through backdoor.
-Manchu riflemen were deemed too physically weak to train wrestling, they changed to training tai chi.
-his grandson yang chengfu had the idea of mimicking the elegant slow imperial court dance, then built a new mythology to explain why his martial art had suddenly slowed to snail crawl.
Not a historian, but I gather qigong has been a part of most styles for a very very long time. Adding taiji I believe is relatively recent and is mostly about marketing. Taiji is even more popular than Bjj.
[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1242943]Not a historian, but I gather qigong has been a part of most styles for a very very long time. Adding taiji I believe is relatively recent and is mostly about marketing. Taiji is even more popular than Bjj.[/QUOTE]
qigong and meditation is actually vital for any external kung fu training, like hitting and lifting weights. it is a form of restoration.
the meditative trance is when your brain releases growth hormone and decreases catabolism. this is why shaolin kung fu meditates before and after every major exercise.
Taiji’s refined body mechanics was like an upgraded version of some northern styles. After it got popular some smart people also installed the update in their systems.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1242969]Taiji’s refined body mechanics was like an upgraded version of some northern styles. After it got popular some smart people also installed the update in their systems.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1242933]I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?
It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.
I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point…any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Not only CMAists, but many karate people also do Taiji to complement their main art. One particularly famous example is (was?) Shotokan pioneer Kanazawa. He had mentioned in an interview that it taught him to use a relaxed energy to complement the hard energy of Shotokan.
However, is Taiji more healthy than other MA? Not necessarily. I’ve seen many middle-aged and elderly people, some who were teachers, who trained only Taiji, who did not seem healthy at all. In fact, I knew an old man in Taipei who had been a bodybuilder when he was young, had trained some ‘Shaolin’, and whose main mode of exercise when I knew him was brisk walking. He literally walked circles around the other old men who taught Taiji, and was physically in superior shape, and mentally much sharper and ‘alive’ than they were. He was also surprisingly strong for his age (at the time, probably his late 70s or early 80s). He claimed he never studied Taiji.
[QUOTE=bawang;1242940]-doing forms slow and smooth was common in longfist systems for beginner training.[/QUOTE]
This is not true for my branch of the longfist system. When I was young, one day I was tired from doing something else. I did my longfist form in slow motion. My longfist teacher told me that if I didn’t feel like to train in “combat” speed then don’t train it at all. After that day, I have never trained my longfist in slow speed. The slow speed training to me is a “bad habit” by itself.
Even today, the slow speed training just remind me that an old man is dying. Not much youth and live energy at all.
I can tell why MY sifu incorporates the tai chi he has learned from Kuo Yuen Ling. My sifu stresses the tai chi because of the suppleness and togetherness it teaches the students. It forces the body to move everything at once and this causes a tremendous amount of power to come out in connected strikes. Also it just teaches people to relax. I know when I spar I tend to get anxious and tense, but since i have been doing a lot of tai chi lately, that hasn’t been the case and its easier for me to relax while hitting and getting hit.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243007]
Even today, the slow speed training just remind me that an old man is dying. Not much youth and live energy at all.[/QUOTE]
I know most people have accepted that Taiji has completely lost all martial application. There are still a handful that teach it as a “combat art.” I have seen many people teach Taiji applications, but have never met anyone who trained it as a true combat art.
Anyone can see that simply training slow and soft is counter intuitive to fighting. So how does one train taiji for combat? Is there anyone doing live, hard contact sparring? (Not just controlled push hands.) Is there anyone conditioning their strikes, or training strength?
I ask this in seriousness, not to make any kind of point…
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243033]I know most people have accepted that Taiji has completely lost all martial application. There are still a handful that teach it as a “combat art.” I have seen many people teach Taiji applications, but have never met anyone who trained it as a true combat art.
Anyone can see that simply training slow and soft is counter intuitive to fighting. So how does one train taiji for combat? Is there anyone doing live, hard contact sparring? (Not just controlled push hands.) Is there anyone conditioning their strikes, or training strength?
I ask this in seriousness, not to make any kind of point…[/QUOTE]
People train slowly as part of their training so that they can develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness so that they can move faster and more powerful. Dai xinyi people spend a lot of time on internal development and slow training. Tell me if this dai xinyi guy is not fast enough: http://www.56.com/u94/v_Nzk3MDY2MTE.html
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1243051]People train slowly as part of their training so that they can develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness so that they can move faster and more powerful. [/QUOTE]
How long do people need to train slow in order to “develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness”? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?
What if peole just did slow training all their life and have never tried the fast training method at all?
If slow is to achieve fast then “the older that you are, the faster that you should move”. This just don’t seem to be the case for some Taiji people.
It’s not really a question of how long it takes. Our bodies always get better and stronger, that’s why Sifu introduces it from day 1. It’s just one of those things you never stop training. So yeah, it all depends on if you get content with your abilities. But that itself goes against gong fu. Human excellence is never achieved, we just strive for it.
I’m only familiar with xinyi and Chen taiji and I don’t include people who just do it for health. In the styles that I practice training slow is for unlocking higher speeds and there is a lot of things that can be learned from both aspects at all levels.
In my experience so far training Tai Ji technique fluidly:
-Improves body posture, body alignments (internal like the bones and external form), helps to control the breath w/ the movements, a sense of power w/ the movements (leading the intention of the technique), get a great sense of rooting, and shifting and turning (esp. in push hands), empty and full stance work (yin-yang principle/ action philosophy), and yielding, circling (ex: setting up for a joint lock).
I actually started my training w/ Tai Ji (Yang and Chen/ push hands/ qi gong) and it was the thing that got me going into training other styles like Long Fist. So for that I am very glad- I know all the principles I mentioned above about Tai Ji are present in Long Fist but the Tai Ji seems to make some of those points quite clear/ accessable.
Also I think there are some points Tai Ji can teach people that are found in all TCMA, but that might be lost (esp. westerners) on some people without the proper training- like a sense of Peng, the way push hands shifts and turns, etc. I know because of my Tai Ji training my Long fist techniques which is faster-paced has come out better in all areas of the training- techniques are crisper, transitions smoother, I never leaned forward or backward (a bad beginner habit) when I was learning say, a heel kick- but that is just my own experience.
YouknowWho brought up a good point- how long is the Tai Ji training necessary to get those concepts down that can be applied in any style.
I recently saw a sparring match/ competition between a CLF person and a Tai Ji person- the Tai Ji person never had a chance- she had a few okay hook/ jab/ etc. combos but she seemed to think “I’ll stick my hand out w/ my magical Peng energy and go for a take-down” but she never got a chance.
The way I see it at this current point in time is if people are looking for health then yes, Tai Ji is great for health (blood flow, joints, oxygen, balance). If they are looking for a martial art, then it can be an important cross-training tool- take a look at Tiffany Chen (daughter of William C. C. Chen) she started w/ Tai Chi but then fanned out into other styles and is a champion kick boxer.
Those Tongbei/ etc. videos were good to watch, thanks for the history.
[QUOTE=crazedjustice88;1243060]It’s not really a question of how long it takes. Our bodies always get better and stronger, that’s why Sifu introduces it from day 1. It’s just one of those things you never stop training. So yeah, it all depends on if you get content with your abilities. But that itself goes against gong fu. Human excellence is never achieved, we just strive for it.[/QUOTE]
In the
beginner stage, you want to develop structure, Fajin, body unification, … (static).
intermediate or advantage stage, you want to develop momentum (dynamic).
Since
momentum = mass * velocity,
Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.
Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.[/QUOTE]
in traditional longfist form is not used to train fighting ability. its used to teach you ideas. sparring is used to train fighting ability.
[QUOTE=MarathonTmatt;1243075]
Also I think there are some points Tai Ji can teach people that are found in all TCMA, but that might be lost (esp. westerners) on some people without the proper training- like a sense of Peng.[/QUOTE]
if you try to use principles of push hands for fighting, you will never win.