Evolution of Tai Chi/Chi Kung as Martial Arts

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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[QUOTE=bawang;1243165]
if you try to use principles of push hands for fighting, you will never win.[/QUOTE]

I think for the most part you are correct. Most fights will have a very hard kick-boxing/ scrappy-like energy to them. I think some push hands principles can be applied (shifting/stepping behind someone for a takedown, shoulder/hip Cao comes to mind) it depends what opportunity is there.
The one time I did accidentally get into a fight recently it was very striking/ scrappy, no opportunity to use push hands principles, I was just lucky I got a few good shots in and wore the other person out because I was more conditioned (I held back after getting those shots in because I thought the whole situation was stupid in the first place.)
I have been able to use push hands principles in sparring with some success here and there but that is another story (not fighting I realize.)

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[QUOTE=MarathonTmatt;1243181]I think for the most part you are correct. Most fights will have a very hard kick-boxing/ scrappy-like energy to them. [/QUOTE]

pierce the red fog and set yourself free

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[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1242933]I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point…any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I also would say w/ TCMA, some traditional stylists don’t like the labels external/ internal, at least when it comes to their art, I know this is true w/ a lot of older northern styles so yes it is a yin-yang thing.
here is a clip I found about the northern eagle claw style and Wu style tai chi training and why both are offered at the Shifu’s school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=271Tcg8aUlk&feature=player_detailpage

here is footage from the 30’s from changsha- some stretching/ calisthenics, kung fu and tai chi are performed by both military and the women’s high school group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocMJfZkADI4&feature=player_detailpage

I also believe when the Ching Woo Ass. opened (one of the first public schools) around 1916? that many styles were taught by the teachers (of different systems) there, some of which was tai chi and other styles like long fist. so it is the cultural martial arts heritage of china.

seemed to be relevant to ur original question.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243033] Is there anyone doing live, hard contact sparring? (Not just controlled push hands.) Is there anyone conditioning their strikes, or training strength?

I ask this in seriousness, not to make any kind of point…[/QUOTE]

In the 90’s Chen style competitions were about taiji’s grappling techniques like this:
http://www.56.com/u11/v_NDAyMjc1ODE.html
http://www.56.com/u45/v_NDUzNTQzNTQ.html

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.

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RE: “slo-mo training”:
Evert MA and even every sport, advocated slow and controlled movements at the beginning stage of learning them.
Its just common sense.
It teaches awareness, proper form, balance and so forth.
BUT the moment an acceptable level of “doing” is reached then “practical” speed is used, virtually always, why?
Because you can NOT move the right way if you do NOT move the right way, in short:
You will never be able to do a move with speed, power and explosiveness unless you DO it that way, regularly.
You will not be able to develop the balance, skill, and your body will not be able to handle the “forces” it will go through when doing it that way.

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[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1243501]In the 90’s Chen style competitions were about taiji’s grappling techniques like this:
http://www.56.com/u11/v_NDAyMjc1ODE.html
http://www.56.com/u45/v_NDUzNTQzNTQ.html

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.[/QUOTE]

tai chi people can train combat push hands, but they will never train combat.

combat chi sao, combat form, combat shuai Jiao, combat gay sex, as long as its not real combat.

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[QUOTE=bawang;1243522]tai chi people can train combat push hands, but they will never train combat.[/QUOTE]

If

  • “combat” is your main goal, you may not pick up Taiji as your prime art.
  • you pick up Taiji as your prime art, “combat” may not be your main goal.

To me, combat and Taiji are like chicken and duck. They both speak different languages.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243529]If

  • “combat” is your main goal, you may not pick up Taiji as your prime art.
  • you pick up Taiji as your prime art, “combat” may not be your main goal.

To me, combat and Taiji are like chicken and duck. They both speak different languages.[/QUOTE]

combat tai chi is like a chicken trying to fly.

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[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1243501]
In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.[/QUOTE]

So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243564]So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?[/QUOTE]

Their argument is to drill in slow speed, they can develop 100% perfect techniques. Unfortunately some people felt that their techniques were not perfect enough. All their life they had trained “slow speed” until the day they died.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243568]Their argument is to drill in slow speed, they can develop 100% perfect techniques. Unfortunately some people felt that their techniques were not perfect enough. All their life they had trained “slow speed” until the day they died.[/QUOTE]

in tai chi people don’t even know how to throw a punch. drilling slow is the least of their problems.

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[QUOTE=bawang;1243578]in tai chi people don’t even know how to throw a punch. drilling slow is the least of their problems.[/QUOTE]

You say you train Tai Chi…why and how?

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243579]You say you train Tai Chi…why and how?[/QUOTE]

I learned it from an illegal immigrant at ymca when I was 13. after a few months he disappeared. I been doing it ever since.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243579]You say you train Tai Chi…why and how?[/QUOTE]

wat u mean

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I kind of meant how does it figure into a fundamental combat based approach…

do you train it differently then it typically trained

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243584]I kind of meant how does it figure into a fundamental combat based approach…[/QUOTE]

I typed the name of the moves on Chinese google.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243584]

do you train it differently then it typically trained[/QUOTE]

I train by intuition. if something feels weird or stupid, I don’t do it.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1243564]So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?[/QUOTE]

A full-time professional Chen Taiji student’s training has different parts. Doing the first set slow, the second set fast for fajin and push hands is one part of the training. They also do running, weight training, sparring, partner drills (like this: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk3MTI4NDIw.html ) regularly as part of their everyday training.

(The competition video of the taiji student doing the drills: http://www.56.com/u44/v_MzY0Mjc2ODU.html)

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Maybe I didn’t ask a very good question?

I probably didn’t word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool? Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I’ve been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such, but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts. What brought this about?

[QUOTE=bawang;1242940]this is the short but complete answer for the total evolution of tai chi

-doing forms slow and smooth was common in longfist systems for beginner training

-supernatural powers was common part of snake oil kung fu

-yang luchan failed the imperial exams but made enough friends to join the retinue of prince duan through backdoor.

-Manchu riflemen were deemed too physically weak to train wrestling, they changed to training tai chi.

-his grandson yang chengfu had the idea of mimicking the elegant slow imperial court dance, then built a new mythology to explain why his martial art had suddenly slowed to snail crawl.[/QUOTE]

Well Tai Chi and Chi Kung predate Manchu rifleman…I’m stupid round eye so you’ll have to connect the dots better for me. I’m not seeing the complete picture.

[QUOTE=bawang;1242960]relatives of tai chi:

hongdong county tongbei, with direct lineage connection to chen tai chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM

julu village longfist, with indirect connection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY8uKue-orI

you can see the similarity in the salute[/QUOTE]

Again, I’m not drawing a line to points or exactly what you’re trying to show me here.

[QUOTE=mawali;1242968]It appears that when the modern era came into being (1900-I know not the exact date) the designation ‘taijiquan’ was born.

  1. We all know the origin was Chen family village MA
  2. We all know Chen family incorporated style of their village
  3. We all know Yang family initially got the designation but as more Chen people came to Beijing, they realized that Chen village art was the origin
  4. With modernization, they were all lumped together as part of that new taijiquan movement national treasure

Bawang’s links show that reformulation of an art is possible with the proper input and skill![/QUOTE]

Thanks Mawali, now this is getting more to meat of my question…why Tai Chi is used in conjunction with other arts…you think it was the National Treasure Movement? Were they using Chi Kung or another soft/internal/energy development tool prior to this? As part of their martial offerings?

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1242998]Not only CMAists, but many karate people also do Taiji to complement their main art. One particularly famous example is (was?) Shotokan pioneer Kanazawa. He had mentioned in an interview that it taught him to use a relaxed energy to complement the hard energy of Shotokan.

However, is Taiji more healthy than other MA? Not necessarily. I’ve seen many middle-aged and elderly people, some who were teachers, who trained only Taiji, who did not seem healthy at all. In fact, I knew an old man in Taipei who had been a bodybuilder when he was young, had trained some ‘Shaolin’, and whose main mode of exercise when I knew him was brisk walking. He literally walked circles around the other old men who taught Taiji, and was physically in superior shape, and mentally much sharper and ‘alive’ than they were. He was also surprisingly strong for his age (at the time, probably his late 70s or early 80s). He claimed he never studied Taiji.[/QUOTE]

Interesting Jimbo, and something else I’ve drawn parallels to locally. Even Yoga is extremely popular as a supplemental fitness, breathing, relaxation, health, chi or energy tool at Socal martial arts schools. It maybe a business tool to draw more clients but it certainly fits a similar function as Tai Chi/Chi Kung. I have noticed that many lifetime martial artists are drawn to Tai Chi for one reason or the other and will add it to their styles. I’ve seen Ninjitsu schools also offer it…I’m just wondering if its only a biz tool but I doubt that.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243078]In the

  • beginner stage, you want to develop structure, Fajin, body unification, … (static).
  • intermediate or advantage stage, you want to develop momentum (dynamic).

Since

momentum = mass * velocity,

Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.[/QUOTE]

Well of course. But only a fool forgets the basics once he/she learns the advanced stuff. Besides, we use the hop gar for fighting, only every now and then is the tai chi actually used in combat since most applications are waiting for someone to strike.

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[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1244972]

Again, I’m not drawing a line to points or exactly what you’re trying to show me here.
[/QUOTE]

they share the same salute.
[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1244972]

Well Tai Chi and Chi Kung predate Manchu rifleman…I’m stupid round eye so you’ll have to connect the dots better for me. I’m not seeing the complete picture.

[/QUOTE]

tai chi exaggerated the slow aspect of longfist and fabricated a mythology around it. then it became popular exercise for physically weak manchus.