Evolution of Tai Chi/Chi Kung as Martial Arts

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1244972]I probably didn’t word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool? Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I’ve been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such, but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts. What brought this about?[/QUOTE]

As I’ve learned it, Taiji was actively promoted and popularized in Mainland China from the 1950s onward as a way to improve the health of the population. China had a shortage of doctors and needed to focus on preventive medicine and lifestyle improvements to avert or minimize a health crisis.

This campaign created the modern health/meditation Taiji we see today (or perhaps built on elements that were already there, but spread them on a large scale). The goal wasn’t to teach the masses to fight.

Again, this is just the explanation I’ve heard.

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[QUOTE=rett;1245354]As I’ve learned it, Taiji was actively promoted and popularized in Mainland China from the 1950s onward as a way to improve the health of the population. China had a shortage of doctors and needed to focus on preventive medicine and lifestyle improvements to avert or minimize a health crisis.

This campaign created the modern health/meditation Taiji we see today (or perhaps built on elements that were already there, but spread them on a large scale). The goal wasn’t to teach the masses to fight.
[/QUOTE]

Prior to the 1950s, very few people knew what taijiquan was so as a resul,t Beijing put together the reformation council to abridge and re-engineer taijiquan. Incidently, there were a few people who actually shortened the forms of taijiquan but since they were seen as anti-government, or served in a pre-communist era, or with title and education, they were ignored and put away and ‘intellectual property’ was stolen since 'who would really care"

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Similar Enough for the Point?

[QUOTE=bawang;1242960]relatives of tai chi:

hongdong county tongbei, with direct lineage connection to chen tai chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM

julu village longfist, with indirect connection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY8uKue-orI

you can see the similarity in the salute[/QUOTE]

The first video guy uses a break-a-grab, a trip and a throw, to longfist.

The second video guy uses a breathing move (that converts to a break-a-grab), to a sword translation (that could disguise a throw) to longfist.

The first guy opens with one hand/arm in one motion. The other guy uses two in two motions.

The originator of the second guy’s stuff died, the T’ai Chi originator (Chen Wangting) was eight years old. So that we’re seeing supposedly hard stuff done slow but with Chen influence, we can only talk about the performances we see today Not the way it was first done.

No_Know

Similarity, not really. Though they both use a throw, one does a health move throw from a sword move the other does deflections, a trip and throw. That’s not similar enough for me to call them similar for what you might be trying to say perhaps, bawang.

No_Know

44

Long Fist in T’ai Chi Ch’uan

[QUOTE=bawang;1245197]they share the same salute.

tai chi exaggerated the slow aspect of longfist and fabricated a mythology around it. then it became popular exercise for physically weak manchus.[/QUOTE]

T’ai Chi Ch’uan core moves seem so many different than core long fist they are distinct. Long fist was first…I just looked at longfist 32 video clip and then a Chen taich 18 video clip… I can see the Long fist in T’ai Chi Ch’uan. Called the Long Fist style of the Emperor I don’t think it had particularly slow aspects at all.

In the 500~ years from long fist start to Chen Wangting–T’ai Chi Ch’uan originator’s birth. There’s stuff going on. I can see long fist as a base and container or basic delivery system for non long fist principles, O.K.

No_Know

45

[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1242933]I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing? [/QUOTE]
A system with T’ai Chi Ch’uan added within forty years or so, it might be marketing. Why China would push it is it’s like a discovery and they get credited. It’s fool proof with high margins for volumous usage. you don’t pull muscles doing it and every aged person can do it now or youth can look forward to being expert when they are too long-lived for rugby.

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

If I’m a baker of bread but business dwindles I might realize I can market to weddings, birthday parties and events through cakes then cupcakes–dirves. Schools might add T’ai Chi Ch’uan to the cirriculum to get more paying customers in the angle of Stress relief. Versatile enough to include meditation or spirituality…stack the demographics, load 'er-up.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point…any thoughts?]

Qigong is formful. t’ai Chi can be a vehicle through which one can enact the qigongbenefits in a particular direction–use versus development of the tools (the within and out). Purpose to the Power.

No_Know

46

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1243056]How long do people need to train slow in order to “develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness”? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

What if peole just did slow training all their life and have never tried the fast training method at all?

If slow is to achieve fast then “the older that you are, the faster that you should move”. This just don’t seem to be the case for some Taiji people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsDPy7zMrA4[/QUOTE]

bkuz I am old & fragile

my knees are crippled - so to try & go any faster would only be making life more painful for myself - especially if I am lucky enough to grow older - even better really old like 200

I just found this Video & I’m trying to watch his footwork –>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc7eO4eA158

I have never done wu style - But I have some books about it now
I do yang & chen - as far as my taiji goes

someone said that in Wushu - your lifetime opponent is yourself - I don’t want to get into a fight with my knees

is that Jerry Alan Johnson in your video ?

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[QUOTE=Throwaway Child;1246304]your lifetime opponent is yourself - I don’t want to get into a fight with my knees. is that Jerry Alan Johnson in your video ?[/QUOTE]

Don’t know who that person is.

The discussion of combat and health sometime just contradict to each other.

  • Combat is to train for others.
  • Health is to train for yourself.

When your fist meet your opponent’s face, it’s neither healthy for your opponent’s face nor healthy for your own fist.

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--------------------sifu said ---- “no fighting.”- "remember that "

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----------- Chinese Dubbed Khmer

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[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1242933]I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point…any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

We have a short history of Tai Chi here, courtesy of our martial arts school in San Diego.
The short answer is that Tai Chi, in its current form, is actually quite young – from the 19th century. With respect to “internal” and “external” – that designation is actually quite recent (~50 years). Martial arts of yesteryears understood both internal and external power generation and did not classify themselves as one or the other.

51

[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1244972]I probably didn’t word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool?[/quote]
Mostly because:

[QUOTE=No_Know;1246236]A system with T’ai Chi Ch’uan added within forty years or so, it might be marketing. Why China would push it is it’s like a discovery and they get credited. It’s fool proof with high margins for volumous usage. you don’t pull muscles doing it and every aged person can do it now or youth can look forward to being expert when they are too long-lived for rugby.

If I’m a baker of bread but business dwindles I might realize I can market to weddings, birthday parties and events through cakes then cupcakes–dirves. Schools might add T’ai Chi Ch’uan to the cirriculum to get more paying customers in the angle of Stress relief. Versatile enough to include meditation or spirituality…stack the demographics, load 'er-up.[/quote]

Also, your original question “begs the question”:Is Taiji a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA?

I’d say that no, it isn’t. There’s nothing standard about that at all. In fact, it’s almost non-existent. It’s generally just added in so that people can have more stuff to teach or so that there’s a class that less athletic people can get into.

And also:

Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I’ve been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such…

Still are and still are…provided that the teacher actually has that skill set which is pretty rare. So what do you do if you do not have actual Taijiquan combat skill…

… but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts.

Now even if the teacher does have high level skill with Taijiquan, there’s still the market issue. Taijiquan provides lots of different things to lots of different people. So even with a really good teacher with combat skill, there are still going to be a lot of students who just aren’t attracted to it for those reasons. The short answer is that Taiji is typically taught as a “meditative and chi development tool” because that’s what most people want to get out of it.

52

I need to learn the martial side of it - it seems I always have to get into a whole bunch of fights - no matter how much I try to avoid them - if you are trying to avoid confrontation - bad drill Sargents & doc guards will always start fights with you -
not to mention Mr. Satan Right there –> X — & all those other fools –
What has the world come to ???

I was just trying to be healthy & exercise

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[QUOTE=omarthefish;1251173]Taiji is typically taught as a “meditative and chi development tool” because that’s what most people want to get out of it. [/QUOTE]
I tried to start a new Sanda class in Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. The program director said they already have enough MA classes, and they don’t need another one. But they would like to have a Taiji class if I’m willing to teach.

For some people, Taiji is not even considered as MA at all.

If Chen Taij guys could fight MT guys, I should be able to teach a “Taji Sanda” class. The problem is, if I teach a

  • Sanda class, I’ll get students who are interested in combat.
  • Taiji class, I’ll get students who are interested in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance.

Are there such students who are interested in combat and also interest in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance? How many such students exist on this planet?

54

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1251435]
Are there such students who are interested in combat and also interest in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance? How many such students exist on this planet?[/QUOTE]

I’m such a student and attempt to instill those values in my students. After a good, hard sparring session I feel at peace, I’ve looked deep inside myself and become a more honest person. A proper, athletic sanda session is healthier than any taiji class.

For most taiji people, these things are just out of their grasp, and their teachers dangle a carrot in front of them. A new qigong set, further work on developing “structure”, or learning a taolu that is twice as long as the one they learned before are all seen as another step to achieving health and inner peace.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1251435]I tried to start a new Sanda class in Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. The program director said they already have enough MA classes, and they don’t need another one. But they would like to have a Taiji class if I’m willing to teach. [/QUOTE]

This is what happens when people who don’t know anything about martial arts decide what should be taught or not. He doesn’t realize what you have to offer is more valuable than anything else being taught at the school.:frowning:

56

Greetings,

Re: Tai Chi exercise vs Martial Art

Did any of you consider mind control as a reason for the push foe the health aspects of Tai Chi and, later, Wushu?

A weak, docile, nation is very easy to control; a strong, warrior, nation is very difficult to honor.

mickey

57

When I was going through massage therapy school, Taiji was one of the requirements needed to pass to go beyond the school’s introductory course. It was a shortened Yang form; there was no martial emphasis. We had to learn it to develop ‘whole-body movement’ and proper posture/stance while massaging, as opposed to just using the hands/arms. I didn’t need it, as I could already do that with my previous MA training, but it was still required. Once I passed that examination, I stopped doing the Taiji.

I’ve started and soon stopped Taiji about 3 times in my life. I suppose it’s not my cup of tea.

58

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1251435]
Are there such students who are interested in combat and also interest in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance? How many such students exist on this planet?[/QUOTE]

In my opinion that’s a contradiction.. like loosing weight with liposuction.

59

[QUOTE=mickey;1251519]Greetings,

Re: Tai Chi exercise vs Martial Art

Did any of you consider mind control as a reason for the push foe the health aspects of Tai Chi and, later, Wushu?

A weak, docile, nation is very easy to control; a strong, warrior, nation is very difficult to honor.

mickey[/QUOTE]

You’ve obviously never met a professional level wushu athlete from China. They are all superbly fit and atheletic, in most cases much stronger and fitter than an average wester martial arts “expert”, and usually with far more authentic knowledge of traditional wushu, which is as rare as hen’s teeth in the west.

And b, if that was true they wouldn’t have introduced san da, and built a massive army.

And c, you must know zero about China. There are literally tens of thousands of riots in China every year - I mean, tens of thousands. It’s always astonishing how people have these bizarre notions about wushu, when wushu players are so much better, and generally have so much more authentic knowledge and skill than the people who criticise them.

60

A big part of the problem is that people think they have a right to a living from wushu. If you don’t teach for money, then you don’t have to worry about things being taught in ways that you don’t agree with. Chinese martial arts would improve massively overnight if 99% of the commercial schools in the West simply closed.