Who Has Chi

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

my impression

was that most people did not overstand the original question

aside from that…

i agree with you sifu, even a practitioner of many years with experience in competition will find that their world is all fizzuckeeed if they fight full contact with no rules and they have not done tree or partner conditioning

if you are not prepared for the shock of getting struck then you are in for a reality check your books and sifu cant help you when the time comes to put up or shut up

every martial artist needs a good whuppin now and then to keep them “grounded”

burn the batti mon

i cant wait for the full contact seminar ive been hooking up the brooklyn trees so lovely :slight_smile: LOL

Black - I need to talk with you this weekend if you have time, email me what is a good time to call - no big deal just wan fi touch base.

22

Blacktaoist

:o Excuuuuse me, if you didn’t like my post. But the question stated was,

How many of you have Chi to use your art?
and how long did it take for you to get there?

I think I answered that in the first paragraph. I merely used references from 2 pretty good sources for the benefit and enjoyment of others who cared to read it and to see where maoshan was going with his questions.

Maoshan, You later stated…

This is the one to debate.

My opinion is:
The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. Thus you have the auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong. And at best what you get with this practice is good health. Combat requires Physical conditioning. The muscles must be worked. Without that you’ll get dropped like anyone else in a situation.

First, I already testified to the benefits of chi kung in helping my personal development but I don’t think it is anything more than a supplement. Most chi kung postures are within the forms anyway so I don’t think it is a necessary and the tai chi form does open the channels for proper circulation. But the second part of your opinion has more to do with conditioning and muscles. Is that to imply that chi kung exercises have more to do with conditioning and muscles than the forms? Or are we talking about another kind of training?

Can you learn to fight by practicing only forms? Maybe, I know I couldn’t. Can you learn to use your chi in fight to protect an area or to help you recover faster? Yes, maybe would take some practical experience but it can be done! Can you shoot chi bullets from your hands and kill your opponent in a fight? HeII no! So what are we talking about when you say combat chi?

23

Train hard, Train smart
Chi happens

24

Practical Methods

Count write:
Excuuuuse me, if you didn’t like my post

If I didn’t like your post ,you would know about it Because I would have Told You. Yes your Post had good general information on what chi is about. But your post had nothing to do with what Maoshan post was about In my opinion.

if people that post up here on this internal web page don’t understand or know about general chi theory, then they ass should not be on this web page."

Maoshan write:How many of you have Chi to use your art?

Maoshen write this statement because a lot of you so called scholars of Chi Theory on Kungfuonline claim to be able to utilze this so called chi or fa-jing with out practicing any kind of conditioning or impact training.

I have met a few people on kungfuonline that before I met them, that post a lot of replys talking like they train will hard and they have true skills in the so called internal martial arts.

When I met them they had nothing, No fighting skills whatever." They had no conditioning and they fighting method of offensive and defensive was not practical. If they live in my hood they be good as dead." A street fighter would eat them up."

Bottom line, people can talk a good game, but when the time comes to met another Martial artist that is very skill in the old ways of training. When it is time to cross hands or freefight,pushhands or what ever game you play. If you are not train right and your style of combat is not practical." All the chi kung and Esoteric internal theory will not help your ass when you met a real train martial art fighter.

And thats way them Tai Chi experts got they ass kick by them Muay Thai fighters." Not because The style of Tai Chi is bad, but because they was not condition for real combat. The Muay Thai fighters were condition for real combat and this they mind manifest a killer mindset. They didn’t play the pushhands game or play Tai Chi form and talk theory all day to beat they Tai Chi opponents.

They just train hard utilizing the proper methods of fighting." Something a lot of so-called internal martial artist need to do."

Peace.

Yi Wu Give me a call at my House. I’m home right now. :slight_smile:

25

sifu i left your # at home

i will touch base with you during the week-end

ill be in the studio from midnight till wednesday morning.

its cold out there! time to up the jing levels lol

peace

26

Blacktaoist

I do hear what you are saying and I was just kidding around anyway. But I will say this. The fight you mentioned (twice) happened more than 44 years ago (the year I was born, actually). Find out who went to Bangkok to fight and win the Muay Thai Championships in heavyweight, light heavyweight and cruiser weight division for the last 6 consecutive years. I will say this, he used Baji not tai chi, but his teacher has one of the best books on tai chi you will ever find. Pick up The Invisible Web by Dr. Su Yu Chang. (If you are of a mind to read some theory):wink:

27

“ Have a question for all of you who practice Anyone of the Internal Styles.
In particular Tai Chi. In the last thread I posted, toward the end,
Someone said some thing that really made me think.
How many of you have Chi to use your art? “

I do.

”and how long did it take for you to get there? “

Over 10 I would say but I didn’t really understand things until over 25+ yrs of training. Understanding as in just getting the basic idea of working with it.

”Understand, In Tai chi In particular all I have ever heard in terms of training is the slow form and Push hands, and Chi Gong. Which means you must depend on Chi to fight.”

In correct, hard to explain.

First I have had training in:

Lama hop gar.
Plum flower mantis
7* mantis

So I know and understand what many of talk about conditioning training. I have also tested what i worked with to my satistfaction

In my experience to really meet the requirements o f TC is very, very hard.
because it is really hard, not many people get to the point where it really becomes functional. IMHO most people are far below the level that they think they are. even in the basic things like sung.
it takes awhile, but once you find it you will know. :slight_smile:

the hard i talk of is the hardness of letting go.

You do not depend on CHI to fight, it’s a byproduct of correct training. All this impact condition that BT talks about is irrelevant. You don’t need it.

I have used my TC in sparring matches and also the attributes developed using TC in playing with my mantis. Now I only play the TC. Cheng Man Chings style to be specific. It has all that I need at this point.

Shen, YI, CHI, for me these are the cornerstones of my training and understanding.

The TC people that I have met in SF are very real with their art. They will and can hurt you if they want to.
To think otherwise is a mistake.

haveing said this, it’s always the person and their understanding of their art that makes it real.

28

..

i’ll try to answer the question. to answer it properly in how i understand things best and how i have observed things in my training, i need to divide each of the applications of qi in fighting into two categories (usually they are both deemed jin, but i need more of a division to explain each). i’m just making up these terms on the fly, but here goes: internal qi effects and external qi effects.

internal qi effects: this is the jin as in the wuxing of xingyiquan and the bagua of taijiquan and baguazhang. it uses form (bones, ligaments, tendons, and muscles - especially tendons) and intention to move qi inside the body. really, all movements have qi in them to be able to execute the movements, obviously. to have real substantial power, though, using the designated jins from your system should take anywhere from six months to a year under clear instruction.

external qi effects: stuff like explosive power and sensing power. it is natural progression from internal qi effects, and will happen after you have enough qi for you to be able to sense and control that can extend out of the body. it is simply different manifestations of interaction with your external surroundings, stemming from internal jin. this relies on a few things. they are how much qi you have, how well you can use it, and the conductivity of the paths it travels on (low resistance is achieved by frequent practice). i would say that this varies greatly, and is really something that you just kind of break through to. i would say one to two years after you achieve the internal qi effects.

i wouldn’t expect much out of most people, though, because they are often so caught up in philosophy and have read so many books that they don’t know qi when they feel it. they don’t understand it, because earlier they have misinterpreted the things they have read, so they think that there are contradictions in their practice. often, people go on like this for quite awhile. topics like using muscles and tendons to transport qi are not understood, and often rejected because people don’t understand them, as is the relationship and gradient of using the yi and using the form to move qi. because these topics are not reconciled, they have difficulty progressing. with these difficulties (not to mention poor instruction that is usually given), it is a wonder that people comprehend internal qi effects at it’s foundational level in their lifetimes, rather than in a few short months like it should be.

29

BAMBO LEAF

Hi there!

quick question when you used chi in the sparring and your fights, what happened to your opponent?

could have you dont the same without combat chi?

its a serious question…:smiley:

FT

30

PlasticSquirrel,

Nice post. I agree. Some basic misunderstandings that cannot be cleared in this medium.

fiercest tiger,

I would rate my understanding as very basic to those that I have experience with in TC.

So my wording and understanding my also be basic to some of the people here.

I don’t know what “combat chi “ is. I do know that when working awhile back with one of my mantis friends, I neutralized his attack and made both of his feet leave the ground as he tried to retreat. i caught his hand so he wouldn’t hit the wall we where by.

I have had people that I knew try to do things to me and they end up falling down or getting thrown out by their force.. For me TC is a very different art from those that I have worked with and others that I have met.

This doesn’t mean that I can’t get dusted, (been there) or while playing push hands in the park I haven’t been pushed very hard out (also been there) :frowning: it means that I have personally reached an understanding with an art that I feel I have come to know and have some small knowledge to share.

I have no intent of hurting anyone. Any attack is a sign of being unbalanced, If your unable to change and maintain your own balance then your TC will not work. If you can change and understand force then you can do what you want using their force.

As to not having this or not using it. Mmmm I don’t think I could not do it. It would be counter instinctive.

My old way was what ever I hit I would kill it / arm/leg/body/ head/ this is not my way now. I would say my way now really depends on what the other dose.

again its the person not the art / differnt arts open differnt doors
depends on what you want :slight_smile:

31

BAMBO LEAF

ive never heard of combat chi until this thread ..lol

thanks for the answer!

:smiley:

32

Hmmm,

I don’t know if it’s related, but

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hchoy/ironcrotch.htm

but, you guys aren’t talking about this, are you?

Esteban

33

First,
Let’s get this straight there is no such thing as combat chi. it was a pun. I was referring to those that think that all they have to do is relax and let the Chi do the work. But before I get deep.

Beaudasious
What you wrote is the absolute truth.

Justa Man
In my experience, I’ve come across a lot of different Chi-Gongs for TC. The most popular ones are of the soft or Yin aspects that are employed in modern TC. Their Hard Chi-Gongs That I’ve read about and read only, that are not used anymore. Such as the stone ball for the arms, which is used on a concave table and one for the legs in which the ball is rolled around clockwise and counter.
There is also the fast form that Chen style retained to train the Fa-Jing. Yang Cheng Fu Took out that aspect in teaching the public in order to keep the secrets. The truth of this can be seen in the Yang Ban Hao style. Which is much more combat orientated than YCF’s style.
But understand this also; I’m positive that most of the teachers kept the deep training methods to themselves. The gape between then and now is too great.
Here’s a method for you. Let’s take the universal post posture.
In general when you start a TC class, you take this posture relatively high and told to relax. What would happen if you sunk deeper, Not quit MaBu but somewhat just above. It’s harder to do but the achievement will be greater at the end of the hundred days.
This method is for beginners in the martial arts.
If you’ve had some time in another style, the higher stance makes sense because you have to learn to relax.

No_Know
[So, the ch’i is conducted to? when doing the t’ai chi ch’uan form.]
What are you saying here?
As to the second part of what your saying:
The two people are equal in every thing as far as the training is concerned, except using the tree methods. The one, not having trained the tree method has to lose. With or without a good teacher the result would be the same. If both are training the sensitivity with the same intensity with the exception of the tree…
Come on you figure it out.

Fiercest Tiger
Again, it was a pun. And I agree with you on this point. Skill.
Which takes years of dedicated practice. Something that most that post on this forum lack. This is why TBT and myself take no shorts from any one. A few Non-believers and dreamers have come to but it to the test and left (or layed there), knowing that we’re not Internet warriors. We put the time in and are still putting the time in.
The internal is extremely hard to learn because of so many factors that have to be considered beyond the external aspects. It’s truly blood sweat and tears. I met too few that train that way. Get on the net and all of a sudden everyone trains this way. BU!!$H!T!

Count
Is that to imply that chi Kung exercises have more to do with conditioning and muscles than the forms? Or are we talking about another kind of training?

Both. As I said earlier, there are Wai Gongs and various methods of training aimed at the more external side of Internal training. My question is, is anyone training in them at all? With the dedication needed to succeed? And raise the level of the art here in the west.
The next few years will tell.

Bamboo_leaf
Yours is the response I respected most. But I disagree with you on one point. you say:

First I have had training in:

Lama hop gar.
Plum flower mantis
7* mantis

This gave you a perspective most don’t have. Your mindset was preset. Like I said I agree with you, the letting go aspect is the toughest thing to do.
But your confidence to let go came from your previous experience.

But look my point is ultimately.
It takes hard work over a substantial amount of time to be proficient in the internal.

Peace
Maoshan

34

Bamboo Leaf write:this impact condition that BT talks about is irrelevant. You don’t need it.

Man I hear Tai Chi people like you make that misleading statement all the time. I don’t care what style of Tai Chi you practice if you have no real conditioning and impact training there is no why in hell you last long in a fight with a real fighter.

$hit most Tai Chi guys can’t even take a fist or palm strike to the body because they are not condition to take full-contact fighting.

Why?" because they are dream training with no real practical training established."

My opinions come from my own experience not from books." I train with many Internal masters in the U.S.A. and in China, and every Teacher I learn from had Conditioning training, Even Tai Chi. so for you to write and say impact Condition is Irrelevant, in my opinion is Bull $hit."

the hard i talk of is the hardness of letting go.

A person can let go all they want, but if they are not skill in the right fighting method. and fight a real Martial Artist, The only thing they will be letting go of is they life."

Shen, YI, CHI, for me these are the cornerstones of my training and understanding.

If you ever come to new York I love To met up with you and see with my own two eyes, you stop me utilizing just Shen, YI, ChI with out any kind of conditioning training. Like I said before people love to talk a good game.

The TC people that I have met in SF are very real with their art. They will and can hurt you if they want to.
To think otherwise is a mistake.

So can I." If you think I’m just talking $hit that can be a very big mistake. Like I said before if a tai chi practitioner is not condition for fighting he his good as dead in my book. but you or any of your tc people in SF ever come to New York I will welcome you with open plams, because I think otherwise. I love to see a tai chi person stop my Bagua plams with just chi and no real training. This I have to see."

haveing said this, it’s always the person and their understanding of their art that makes it real.

Any person can learn to understand any art. Being practical with yourself is what makes a person martial art real."

Count write:The fight you mentioned (twice) happened more than 44 years ago (the year I was born, actually).

Count Who cares if it happened 44 years or even a 100 years ago, the bottom line is they got beatdown “KNOCKOUT” Where was they Shen, YI or Chi then?

I will say this, he used Baji not tai chi,

Count I know who the guy is and I have been to MR. Su Yu web site where the information is. I’m a fighter so I How to know things about other fighters.

(If you are of a mind to read some theory)

I have over a 100 books on all kinds of Martial art Theory internal and external, and anybody that knows me will tell you I’m always reading and trying new things to enhance my skills.

The only beef I have with people is , people that talk all Theory but can’t utilize it in a practical way.

peace

35

Bamboo leaf

Bamboo leaf, dont take my statements the wrong way. I’m a very practical mind person when it comes to martial arts. So if a person say they can utilize tai chi with just chi I have to see That $hit with my own to eyes and feel this chi power you are talking about.

People can lie, but my own body and two eyes will never lie to me."
Peace

36

Wow so much anger,

As I’ve said before I’m not here to prove anything to anybody only to share a point that I have arrived at in my own training.

I have tried to get people from here and other forums to meet up with and exchange some ideas so far I have only met a couple.

Anyway, conditioning. First (again) :slight_smile:

When I was playing hop gar. As you may know it’s a long range style. Having iron forearms is a big plus. Also being able to withstand hitting is also a big plus. The teachers at that time seemed to really enjoy (helping?) us to acquire those attributes.
After a run we would come back sit for 20min and then get helped by the teachers before our training even started.

I met my first mantis teacher in Korea after being hit by his student that I didn’t see move.
I was looking for some long arm but found it instead.

The first week in my TC class in HI, I asked if this stuff would really work, and was bounced off a wall by one of the older students.

Now we come back to conditioning.

I think conditioning depends on what you want to condition your self for, if it’s the current ring type of fighting then you need to be able to have very good endurance among many other things.

If its as you say “fighting” mmm I don’t know my kung fu includes brick fu, chair fu, anything that I can use fu. I’m from the city the few fights that I have seen and been in had no rules. Run fu works well too!!!

My point is that TC is supposed to be able to swallow and spit, what I have found is that if I make my body like a little tank then my tendency is to use force against force. Why would I need to develop such ting jin (listening) skills if I don’t need it.

Where I push in the park if you use force you can get hurt by your own force. Seen it, felt it, know it.

So I never say that I’m some TC badass or something only that this is what I have come to believe. I have met to many TC people who don’t understand force and how to neutralize it. They use force, speed or some type of tech. this is not what I’m looking for.

If having an iron body was such a skill why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

Train to your level of usage, but know your ability. Many don’t.

test it until it works, and if it dosn’t (och!! damm that hurt) find out why. keep training until you can do it or find another art that you understand.

hey this is only a BBS, just here to share and offer some views

peace :slight_smile:

37

Black Taoist, there are times when I feel that you overstate the poor abilities of internal stylists. Its not that I don’t agree that most of what exists is crap, but I personally prefer to focus on who and what is good in the internals. I really respect your views, but I sometimes wonder if anyone comes up to your standard? Peace.

That being said I agree with you totally on the issue of conditioning and training methodology. Its all very good to “swallow and spit,” but what if your opponent is subtle as well? Its not enough for Taiji stylists to think that they will only face low-level Shaolin guys. Its good to know how to let force land on a cloud, but sometimes steel is more appropriate.

My teacher, Eric Tuttle, has worked with some first class Muy Tai guys in Ontario and they don’t know what to do with him. Their devastating cut kicks bounce off his legs and they scream when they taste his “wind sweeps the cobblestones.” Usually he says he just touches them and “sticks” them in place. I know what he means by this because I have felt him load up my frame with a touch that leaves me virtually frozen in place. He’s “got the Qi.”

As for the earlier comments about people not directly answering the thread, I think that the issue of just what the question was begged for some clarification at first. Here many use the term Qi very loosely and with a vagueness that borders on arcane.

Many good posts here.

38

but BT, i thought conditioning the body to take hits would be deadening the nerve endings in those areas. so when one reaches old man stage, then one has health problems.
like all that training of thrusting palms into hot pebbles or sand or striking trees. that’s all good for skills now, but when old man stage comes, doesn’t that lead to crippled hands or damaged nerves?
it seems to me that this kind of training is all good for reaching higher fighting levels, but worse, overall, on the body.
any thoughts (from anyone)?

maoshan,
thanks for addressing my previous post. no one else paid it mind. the stuff you spoke of seems to build chi sensation in the body. but what kind of exercises build your actual chi? or did i read what you wrote wrong? will doing such different chi gungs as you mentioned build more chi in my body, or will they just build more chi feelings (sensations…tingling hands, swelling feeling, etc)?

for example
say i’ve lead a life of abusing my body…drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. i take up the internal arts and drop all bad habits. now, i’m doing all this chi gung and i feel all types of sensations…tingling, heat, feeling like i’m covered by a blanket, etc. but i have a low level of chi in my bank to start out with from the abuse i gave my body. so the chi that i am working with isn’t very much. it’s like i took a rubber band and stretched it really far. what exercises give me more rubber band to work with? do you catch my meaning? what gives me more chi to work with in chi gung?
thanks for helping me understand man.

39

Just telling you where I stand thats All.

{Wow so much anger,

I have no anger. I’m just telling you my opinion, and where I stand.

{If its as you say “fighting” mmm I don’t know my kung fu includes brick fu, chair fu, anything that I can use fu. I’m from the city the few fights that I have seen and been in had no rules. Run fu works well too!!!

Where in any of my statements I talk about rules. Fighting is fighting where I’m from. Noboby cares about if you know Tai Chi . pushhands, Chi or whatever." Bottom line is, you better know how to use it. There are no rules in any real fight no matter where a person is from. And Yes I had to utilize Run Fu a few times in my Life. I’m no master. "

{My point is that TC is supposed to be able to swallow and spit, what I have found is that if I make my body like a little tank then my tendency is to use force against force. Why would I need to develop such ting jin (listening) skills if I don’t need it.

Thats your opinion,and you have a right to your belief. But I stand by my viewpoints. Most tai Chi practitioners can’t fight." Intill someone prove me wrong I stand by opinion.

{As I’ve said before I’m not here to prove anything to anybody only to share a point that I have arrived at in my own training

I never ask you to prove anything I just welcome you to met up with me in New York so I can see you utilize this Chi you are talking about. Thats all no beef."

{ Where I push in the park if you use force you can get hurt by your own force. Seen it, felt it, know it

You can’t hurt a person if you can’t detected they force. And Who to say Your opponent is going to use all yang." I know I’m not."

{The first week in my TC class in HI, I asked if this stuff would really work, and was bounced off a wall by one of the older students.

Maybe you need to develop Root? But Every New student get Bounced nothing esoteric about it in any way. A normal thing when a person don’t know the Tai Chi game." :slight_smile: “RELAXATION.”

{If having an iron body was such a skill why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

I never said anything about Iron body skill. I live in the real world. Where a person have to train for real. Real fights have real full contact. There are many ways of handing out punishment to your opponent and only two ways of taking it, badly or like a pro. I think I like to take it like a pro." Conditioning in my mind have nothing to do with any Iron body.

but have to do with absorbing some impact. Every real fighter knows you will get hit in a fight. And If you are not use to absorbing some punishment then you are good as dead, and thats the genuine true. No Chi kung or Pushhands is going to save your ass."

{why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

Answer: 1. DISCIPLINE -BUILDING STRENGTH WITH AWARENESS(YI) NOTHING MORE.

{Train to your level of usage, but know your ability. Many don’t.

I know my Ability, and many in the so-called internal are not up to my ability.

[test it until it works, and if it dosn’t (och!! damm that hurt) find out why. keep training until you can do it or find another art that you understand.

Been there did that with many internal teachers, I know the true way of internal Training. And I understand There is no mystical and invisible power. Chi is practical practice, not some mystical chi bull$hit.

{hey this is only a BBS, just here to share and offer some views

I feel the same way, but I going to be Practical with my views.

peace. :cool:

40

Hmmm

what happened to good structure, and body alignment, rooting?

in my style chi is only that CHI! I think many internal people over use this word and make it all mystical thinking they can do amazing feats.

we call luk ging lup hup using mind, chi, breathe, body alignment for power. if the structure is good and you have good timing you can knockout someone with a good jab! chi flows when you have luk ging in ykm perfect body alignment, does the internal styles use this method?

dont make chi mystical, its all around us it flows when everything is aligned with breath,mind and body.:slight_smile: