Constructing a purely TCMA MMA? Can it be done?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1054096]There are people here that agree with my “peculiar brand of thoughtforms”, and two of them actual kung fu sifus, thank you very much.

Yes, the TCMAs and the TJMAs such as karate, take into account the ground scenario![/quote] Are you going to be dropping names? :slight_smile: also, no, they don’t. I think you don’t actually understand what groundfighting is. But by all means, please go to a club and ask to try.

I have yet to come along a MA rule set, including JJ, that does not allow standing up…LOL!
I think you have yet to come across a ruleset at all. Google is your friend here. In your vast sea of knowledge regarding jujitsu, I am certain you will be able to make the apparent connections between what is done in jujitsu in it’s fullness and totality, versus what you may do to anotehr person while engaged in a contest.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053981]LMAO, I spent three years training in Okinawan Shuri-Te Karate from my cousin, who trained under Master Masao Higa while stationed in the Air Force in Okinawa. [/quote]
You do know that many of the Okinawan masters taught somewhat superficial stuff to the American soldiers who happened to join their dojos, don’t you?

And again, the world is full of people who have “studied” karate. Doesn’t your profile also say that you “studied” kung fu? I rest my case!!!..LOL!

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053981]I was fortunate to have the opportunity to train with Higa as well during his trip here to the states.[/quote]
I hope that your take on the TMAs provided as much hilarious entertainment for Higa, as it has for me…LOL!

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053981]But please, by all means, since I am so clueless now in regards to Okinawan Karate, please let me hear your expertise. Okinawan Karate does not teach groundfighting. It teaches tuite, which is joint minupilation and standing locks, much like I described before and you so convienently ignored.[/quote]

Since I may be unworthy of your immense “knowledge” of Okinawan karate, then perhaps you should contact Gavin Mulholland the sixth dan Goju ryu sensei, who will certainly disagree with you!

Here is his website:

http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/Goju-Ryu.html

Contact him about this and don’t forget to inform him of your “expertise” in Okinawan karate.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053981]The fact is you are a deluded tool who is ingorant of what the training is of many posters on this site so you throw out the “clueless” this, “clueless” that garbage. The fact is you are ignorant beyond words in regards to the knowledge of many here yet make vast assumptions about this, just as you did with Karate.[/quote]

So far the ASSUMPTIONS have been yours and your fellow kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, not forgetting the significant number of pseudo-kung fu-ists, as well. There are others here, including sifus (yes, you will meet one, one day), that have agreed with me. A Goju practitioner also agreed with me, and quoted a Shotokan practitioner, Machida, who by extension agreed with, as well. Furthermore, ground fighting is part of the curriculum of the lineage of Wing Chun that I have studied.

THEEEEEEEN, we have the “opposition” coming from pseudo kung fu-ists, and “I know a little bit of everything, because I am modern”, lot of MMA-ists, who have infested these forums with their clueless takes on the TCMAs for years. So, I guess the smart money is not on you lot, is it now? LOL!

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053981]Now, I ask again, what is your training and experience in Okinawan Karate that makes you able to verify it has groundfighting?[/QUOTE]

My training experience as regards karate, is limited to shotokan. However, I have no training experience in Western Boxing either, but if anyone came here and claimed that Western Boxing had spinning back kicks, then they would get the same treatment from me as you are getting!:wink:

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1054104]Are you going to be dropping names? :slight_smile: also, no, they don’t. I think you don’t actually understand what groundfighting is. But by all means, please go to a club and ask to try.[/quote]
Ok, let’s try again. Mas. Oyama, the founder of the Kyokushinkai style of karate, dedicated a whole chapter, in his book, “This is Karate”, to ground fighting.

My lineage of Wing Chun (Mainland Chinese), teaches ground fighting towards the end of Chum Kiu.

We have had EarthDragon, an 8 Step Mantis sifu, who posted here telling us that his system teaches ground fighting.

Related to that, I also mentioned that I read a correspondence from a Northern Mantis (Seven Star, I believe, but not too sure), in Singapoor that stated that his school taught ground fighting as a part of their traditional curriculum.

We have had the poster Goju, who agreed about the existance of ground fighting in the great karate style of Goju Ryu. He even provided a video clip, as an example. This after I had mentioned that I personally visited a Goju Ryu dojo in London, where the sparring (contact, and similar to Kyokushin), included full ground fighting.

Yet, you are still beating your dead horse, this time with a few clueless MMA-ists supporting you, while babbling incoherently (as usual)!! LOL!

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053981]I think you have yet to come across a ruleset at all. Google is your friend here. In your vast sea of knowledge regarding jujitsu, I am certain you will be able to make the apparent connections between what is done in jujitsu in it’s fullness and totality, versus what you may do to anotehr person while engaged in a contest.[/QUOTE]

Here is Japanese Jujitsu in sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKQDF9rcb-M

I rest my case!

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I’ve heard of Gavin Mulholland.
I don’t think he is affiliated with any Okinawan Goju organization though…
Could be wrong.
Gavin maybe a 6th dan and says their is ground fighting in Goju and he is right, Goju does address SOME ground work, but IF his goju has any submissions like arm bars and triangles and leg locks then he ( or his Shihan) added them because they are NOT part of the Jundokan curriculum or any other Okinawan Goju organization curriculum.
Besides, I don’t think his ground game is that good, If I recall at least two of his fighters were subbed via ground work.

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Ok, let’s try again. Mas. Oyama, the founder of the Kyokushinkai style of karate, dedicated a whole chapter, in his book, “This is Karate”, to ground fighting.

You brought this up before and I told you that was NOT ground fighting but fighting FROM the ground.
There is a reason that kyokushin guys are told to cross train in judo or the dojos’ bring in judo guys when they can.
It doesn’t address ground fighting in an all around and over-all sense.
Daidijuku is a prime example of kyokushin WITH ground work, samething with the Shidokan and a few other OFF-SHOOTS.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054121]I’ve heard of Gavin Mulholland.
I don’t think he is affiliated with any Okinawan Goju organization though…
Could be wrong.[/quote]
He was affiliated to an organization, when I visited his dojo. However, I am not sure now.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054121]Gavin maybe a 6th dan and says their is ground fighting in Goju and he is right, Goju does address SOME ground work, but IF his goju has any submissions like arm bars and triangles and leg locks then he ( or his Shihan) added them because they are NOT part of the Jundokan curriculum or any other Okinawan Goju organization curriculum.[/quote]

I would not know about that because I have not studied nor researched all of the Goju lineages. All I can say that he indicated that this was part of their traditional ground training.

Actually, I liked his school and his school’s hands on approach towards combat.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054121]Besides, I don’t think his ground game is that good, If I recall at least two of his fighters were subbed via ground work.[/QUOTE]

Well, I am not going there, as that is not the point I am making. People win and loose all the time. I guess one has to see given fighters win or loose a dozen times before one gets an indication of wether what the school teaches is good or bad.

FWIW, I believe that if you had visited his school, then you would have been impressed by their training approach.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054123]You brought this up before and I told you that was NOT ground fighting but fighting FROM the ground.[/quote]
But the chapter has ground fighting when both parties are on the ground, as opposed to, one fighting the other from the ground.

Again, my point is that it exists in Kyokushinkai, that is the style addresses this scenario. Adding judo to it does make sense in this case.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1054115]You do know that many of the Okinawan masters taught somewhat superficial stuff to the American soldiers who happened to join their dojos, don’t you?

And again, the world is full of people who have “studied” karate. Doesn’t your profile also say that you “studied” kung fu? I rest my case!!!..LOL!

I hope that your take on the TMAs provided as much hilarious entertainment for Higa, as it has for me…LOL!

Since I may be unworthy of your immense “knowledge” of Okinawan karate, then perhaps you should contact Gavin Mulholland the sixth dan Goju ryu sensei, who will certainly disagree with you!

Here is his website:

http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/Goju-Ryu.html

Contact him about this and don’t forget to inform him of your “expertise” in Okinawan karate.:rolleyes:

So far the ASSUMPTIONS have been yours and your fellow kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, not forgetting the significant number of pseudo-kung fu-ists, as well. There are others here, including sifus (yes, you will meet one, one day), that have agreed with me. A Goju practitioner also agreed with me, and quoted a Shotokan practitioner, Machida, who by extension agreed with, as well. Furthermore, ground fighting is part of the curriculum of the lineage of Wing Chun that I have studied.

THEEEEEEEN, we have the “opposition” coming from pseudo kung fu-ists, and “I know a little bit of everything, because I am modern”, lot of MMA-ists, who have infested these forums with their clueless takes on the TCMAs for years. So, I guess the smart money is not on you lot, is it now? LOL!

My training experience as regards karate, is limited to shotokan. However, I have no training experience in Western Boxing either, but if anyone came here and claimed that Western Boxing had spinning back kicks, then they would get the same treatment from me as you are getting!;)[/QUOTE]

ROTFLMAO,wow, dude, you come straight out of a comic book, yes, that was a joke. No where in your rambling, incoherent idiocy did you provide an inkling of proof that Karate had groundfighting. Nowhere. Because you claim one Goju-Ryu Sensei does groundfighting you know does not mean the system as a whole does, probably because like most styles of Karate, the groundfighting as you call it comes from either tuite, which I explained and for the fourth time you ignored, and because many Karate styles cross trained in Judo.

Cross training in Judo is not the same as Karate having it’s own groundfighting techniques. But of course, the same old argument from you, Okinawans taught crap to soldiers, blah, blah, blah, for someone who has limited experience in Shotokan, you sure know a lot about Karate.:rolleyes:

It is quite obvious you know nothing of what ground fighting entails, so please, limit your posts to thing like chain punching and deadly Wing Chun ground fighting and other such laughable things.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1054126]He was affiliated to an organization, when I visited his dojo. However, I am not sure now.

I would not know about that because I have not studied nor researched all of the Goju lineages. All I can say that he indicated that this was part of their traditional ground training.

Actually, I liked his school and his school’s hands on approach towards combat.

Well, I am not going there, as that is not the point I am making. People win and loose all the time. I guess one has to see given fighters win or loose a dozen times before one gets an indication of wether what the school teaches is good or bad.

FWIW, I believe that if you had visited his school, then you would have been impressed by their training approach.[/QUOTE]

Their training approach sounds excellent.
I have always said that there is NO NEED to change your MA, just adapt it to what it will be facing and to do that, you train VS those very things.
You learn what works, what needs to be modified, what needs to be added and that is what it seems they have done.
How they market it or package it is irrelevant.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1054127]But the chapter has ground fighting when both parties are on the ground, as opposed to, one fighting the other from the ground.

Again, my point is that it exists in Kyokushinkai, that is the style addresses this scenario. Adding judo to it does make sense in this case.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but it was a case of using the strikes of kyokushin WHILE on the ground, something that was typical of striking arts that had not been exposed as much as they should have to grappling systems.
Oyama later corrected that.

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I have seen some CLF videos which take the CLF Techniques and apply then to ground fighting scenario and they work.

I have seen the same done with American Kenpo techniques.:slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1054137]I have seen some CLF videos which take the CLF Techniques and apply then to ground fighting scenario and they work.

I have seen the same done with American Kenpo techniques.:)[/QUOTE]

That is typical of striking arts that don’t understand the dynamics and principles of ground work.
And no, they don’t work.
:smiley:

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I have seen some CLF videos which take the CLF Techniques and apply then to ground fighting scenario and they work.

CLF’s theory is that we should be able to use our stuff from our backs…that’s still being tried out. But CLF has not enough answers to alot of ground stuff.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1054141]CLF’s theory is that we should be able to use our stuff from our backs…that’s still being tried out. But CLF has not enough answers to alot of ground stuff.[/QUOTE]

You CAN adapt the striking of any stand up art to the ground, but you need to apply it to ground fighting principles and for that, you need a core in solid ground work of ALL types.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1054141]CLF’s theory is that we should be able to use our stuff from our backs…[/QUOTE]

That’s as much nonsense as thinking groundwork can be applied while standing.

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to get back on target. I think the consensus is “No”. You can’t make a “purely” TCMA mixed martial art that would work in today’s culture and combat environment because it doesn’t have a working ground game.

That being said… what elements from BJJ must be incorporated and synthesized with TCMA Chin Na to make a Chinese-ized ground fighting game?

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1054147]to get back on target. I think the consensus is “No”. You can’t make a “purely” TCMA mixed martial art that would work in today’s culture and combat environment because it doesn’t have a working ground game.

That being said… what elements from BJJ must be incorporated and synthesized with TCMA Chin Na to make a Chinese-ized ground fighting game?[/QUOTE]

If you have BJJ, why would you need Chin-na?
What I mean is, if you take what you need from BJJ, which is far superiour on the ground than any chin-na around, you would not need ANY chin-na for the ground, would you?
Sure you can keep some of the muscle tearing and bone displacing stuff that BJJ doesn’t address, but beyond that…why?

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That’s as much nonsense as thinking groundwork can be applied while standing.

hey, i understand that :smiley: (these other knuckle heads…IDK about :wink: )

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Stand up systems will always have their stand up game regardless if they learn BJJ, JUDO, WRESTLING, or any ground fighting system. Learning something else to compliment the lacking areas of your system is NOT a bad thing. for example, BJJ will not have any effect on how i will apply my CLF. if we go to the ground then i would rely on my BJJ until we got back on our feet.

I disagree with learning multiple martial art stand up systems without truly understanding the first one your began studying. but the other side of day is night and CLF = Daylight while Ground Game = Night . it would be a good balance.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054149]If you have BJJ, why would you need Chin-na?
What I mean is, if you take what you need from BJJ, which is far superiour on the ground than any chin-na around, you would not need ANY chin-na for the ground, would you?
Sure you can keep some of the muscle tearing and bone displacing stuff that BJJ doesn’t address, but beyond that…why?[/QUOTE]

that’s what I meant… kind’ve. Hey - I like BJJ and find it to be a fascinating art all by itself but I think you answered my question: [QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054149]Sure you can keep some of the muscle tearing and bone displacing stuff that BJJ doesn’t address, but beyond that…why?[/QUOTE]

Personally I think all real martial artists need to go to a qualified BJJ instructor and get training up to the blue belt level. IMO after Blue - it’s mostly competition BJJ stuff and if that’s not your thing, then you have enough BJJ.