I don’t know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.
I don’t know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Mig[/QUOTE]
on a more constructive note wrestling as in takedowns, throws etc are found in alot of chinese arts, ground defence is also found in some, i.e. how to deal with a standing opponent and get up safely, but ground fighting is not prelvant for various reasons which will no doubt be covered by others
Precisely, I know about the take downs but especifically on the ground and thanks to be aware of some destructive comments. It seems odd to me to see that in Japan thought about Ju-jitsu but haven’t found any similarity in TCM. I may think that in some generations ground fighting was not allowed as in other kicking was not allowed and fist fight was prevalent.
[QUOTE=mig;1035596]I don’t know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.[/QUOTE]
Shang Dongsheng… he was a student of Zheng Manquing for awhile but his main staple was chinese wrestling… he’s like the standard bearer of chinese wrestling…
his art was called Baoding wrestling which is one of the four major Shuaijiao styles… the other three being Beijing, Tianjin and mongolian… he’s on youtube as a senior doing demos… he was one buff mofo when he was young… check him out…
he was undefeated from 1933 to 1948 and had beaten all the best judoka visiting beijing… interesting guy… but he never produced any students that had his talents which helped fuel the rumours that his style wasnt so great, it was just that he was a freak example and wouldve been great at any grappling style he did… who knows… but anyways, take a look… his old pics are pretty cool, this cat had some serious wings…
:eek::rolleyes:;):D:)
there are five ranges of fighting - kicking, punching, trapping, grappling and ground fighting… CMA styles cover four of the five pretty thoroughly… losts of systems have only the first three, kicki punch trap… they avoid grappling and only cover ground fighting as a followup to a downed opponent from strikes or a throw… like chain punches to the face as you kneel beside the downed opponent… thats a very simplistic aspect of ground fighting and doesnt cover enough to call it ground fighting…
Why SC does not encourage “ground fight”? It’s “1 gain and 8 loses” trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won’t train
counter for throw.
combo for throw.
remain balance after throw.
resistence for throw.
run down ability for throw.
perfect over head throw.
single leg balance throw.
remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned “pull guard” and “jump guard”, you won’t have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train “run down ability”, you will understand what I’m talking about here.
I don’t know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1035629]Why SC does not encourage “ground fight”? It’s “1 gain and 8 loses” trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won’t train
counter for throw.
combo for throw.
remain balance after throw.
resistence for throw.
run down ability for throw.
perfect over head throw.
single leg balance throw.
remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned “pull guard” and “jump guard”, you won’t have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train “run down ability”, you will understand what I’m talking about here.[/QUOTE]
that didnt happen to me… im not super awesome guy but i work hard and i feel pretty well rounded… im happy with it… i like working off my back but i’ll go to hell and back to prevent it… i love clinch fighting and alot of that is takedown defence… i also love throwing, triping etc… a friend of mine is a top judoka and thru him ive learned to love all of that… its also a good part of muay thai… and ofcourse we do throws and locks in cma aswell… they all complement eachother if you let them… i believe its good to learn it in its pure form at first… and in the case of bjj that would mean ur right, pull guard etc… BUT, later on when you start to blend concepts certain things change… and one of those is exactly what you were talking about, you have to make sure that doesnt happen or you arent rounding out your just messing yourself up…
there is absolutely no reason why you cant do both… if you can only afford or have enough time for just one, fine, just dont get it twisted, there are arts out there that will be able to exploit some things you dont know… fighting knowledge is cross cultural and if you want to have a wide scope in your vision you need to learn about alot of ways to fight… some cma styles take this into consideration, but not all… i know its a touchy subject but its what ive experienced… i mean, im open to anything… show me im wrong and i’ll change accordingly…
now that china is really embracing mma rule fights, we’ll see… as far as ring fighting goes, that will answer alot of questions… the street is a whole new game tho…
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1035629]Why SC does not encourage “ground fight”? It’s “1 gain and 8 loses” trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won’t train
counter for throw.
combo for throw.
remain balance after throw.
resistence for throw.
run down ability for throw.
perfect over head throw.
single leg balance throw.
remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned “pull guard” and “jump guard”, you won’t have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train “run down ability”, you will understand what I’m talking about here.[/QUOTE]
Oh? Is that why so many of us BJJ types cross train judo and wrestling?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1035629]Why SC does not encourage “ground fight”? It’s “1 gain and 8 loses” trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won’t train
counter for throw.
combo for throw.
remain balance after throw.
resistence for throw.
run down ability for throw.
perfect over head throw.
single leg balance throw.
remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned “pull guard” and “jump guard”, you won’t have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train “run down ability”, you will understand what I’m talking about here.[/QUOTE]
actually most BJJ guys realise that pulling guard is only an option in certain circumstances (if the opponent is much better standing than you etc) and they still train throws and takedowns.
Using your logic we might as well argue its silly training punches and kicks as it stops us getting into the clinch range and once someone can punch well they wont bother throwing…
Most BJJ guys understand that in an MMA match being on the bottom sucks, being in the guard is the least bad option but they still want top position and control
chinese kung fu doesnt have ground fighting because its boring to watch. chinese kung fu always been a spectator sport for entertainment. if u look for realism sometimes grappling drags on for hours. if u look for entertainment its not fun to watch average guy cant tell whats going on. people start booing after 10 seconds
Why SC does not encourage “ground fight”? It’s “1 gain and 8 loses” trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won’t train
counter for throw.
combo for throw.
remain balance after throw.
resistence for throw.
run down ability for throw.
perfect over head throw.
single leg balance throw.
remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned “pull guard” and “jump guard”, you won’t have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train “run down ability”, you will understand what I’m talking about here.
I do grappling and I love throws, your logic on this is a little backwards imo. It’s not a trade off. My thoughts are learn all area’s not just a select few. Just because someone doesn’t feel they need or that it will hamper the “art” of learning doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t learn anyways.
So learning ground work is detremental to the art itself? Not really getting your point of view on this.
hate to break it to you guys but shuai jiao doesnt have ground work, if anyone read my article in last months issue they would know modern fighters with shuai jiao background are crosstraining in bjj, any shuai jiao style that has some ground work come from some other source and was added in recently.
It’s not easy to contine this throw with ground work. On the other hand, if you always consider the ground work, you will lost your mobility. It’s a trade off.
[QUOTE=bawang;1035689]chinese kung fu doesnt have ground fighting because its boring to watch. [/QUOTE]
SC became sport in the past several hundreds years. Chinese sport audience liked to watch “clean throw - remain standing after throw”.
I’m sure if Chinese sport audience loved to watch “ground game”, The “ground game” would be invented sometime in the Chinese history. I have to say it’s just the culture thing.
I think American also has this kind of culture. When your opponent is down, you wait for him to get back up. If he gets back up, the fight continue. If he stays on the ground, the fight is over, and you walk away.
:D:)