If Kung fu had ground fighting there would be video of it. Why do I believe this? Because Kung fu has extensive YouTube vids on every other aspect: forms, dragon dancing, chi Sao, some sparring.
All the hardwork8’s and all the Mike Patterson’s of the world say different but unless a video is shown…
Youtube videos just show that there isn’t much real kung fu around online.
Maybe I am wrong but wasnt the development of Judo at the end of 19 th century as a part of a National Sports Delevolpment ? For me its no Problem that most Kung Fu Styles use no Ground Game like maybe BJJ does. When I want to compete in MMA I will go and learn BJJ for sure.
Kind regards,
Xian
When I want to compete in MMA I will go and learn BJJ for sure.
Why do you live close to Brazil? why dont you learn Ju jitsu? just becuase BJJ is a fad? no one has ever heard of it before this fad took off yet its been taught since the laste 40’s I would seek out to cross train with ever style not just BJJ, it sucks for MMA
When I want to compete in MMA I will go and learn BJJ for sure.
So when someone blindsides u and takes u down, your KF striking will save u on the ground? So when did tcma start teaching positioning and dominant control on your back?
BJJ/JJ is not just a sports model for competition. Comp. is more of a testing ground for seeing what works. Which tcma lack in testing.
Dog style is massive in Fujian!.
I once watched a master take on four of his students on the floor and ‘lock’ them up in seconds.
I’m sure there are vids on u tube - we can’t get that here in PRC. But even if not, Dog style exists and is a practical TCMA.
[QUOTE=-N-;1139562]Youtube videos just show that there isn’t much real kung fu around online.[/QUOTE]
I have a different interpretation from YouTube. YouTube shows that there is not much good Kung fu in general.
[QUOTE=GETHIN;1139597]Dog style is massive in Fujian!.
I once watched a master take on four of his students on the floor and ‘lock’ them up in seconds.
I’m sure there are vids on u tube - we can’t get that here in PRC. But even if not, Dog style exists and is a practical TCMA.[/QUOTE]
You know, every once and a while someone will pop up with a reference to dog style.
It is obvious to me after decades that this style is not ubiquitous and not generic like Chin Na or stances as found across styles.
It is not readily available to kung Fu really and is not for the most part thought of when one considers Kung Fu as a training option.
In a cultural context, doesn’t anyone even think about why it’s called dog boxing? lol 
I get the impression that while there may be a ‘dog boxing’ style, it’s more like monkey or drunken boxing–which is to say it shows up as a sub-category of techniques within various styles. When we are doing techniques from the ground (be it strikes, take-downs, rolls, etc.) it all seems to fit under the ‘dog-boxing’ umbrella.
[QUOTE=-N-;1139562]Youtube videos just show that there isn’t much real kung fu around online.[/QUOTE]
Or in MMA or Grapplers Quest or other open competition formats… or in real life for that matter.
[QUOTE=RWilson;1139560]If Kung fu had ground fighting there would be video of it. Why do I believe this? Because Kung fu has extensive YouTube vids on every other aspect: forms, dragon dancing, chi Sao, some sparring.
All the hardwork8’s and all the Mike Patterson’s of the world say different but unless a video is shown…[/QUOTE]
Sifu Patterson made it clear that HIS system had the skills to deal with ground fighting and grappling and that the reason was that in his school the instructors brought in practioners and master of different systems and this is, presumably, where the system he was taught develop those skills.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1139655]Sifu Patterson made it clear that HIS system had the skills to deal with ground fighting and grappling and that the reason was that in his school the instructors brought in practioners and master of different systems and this is, presumably, where the system he was taught develop those skills.[/QUOTE]
And the video evidence is…where? Kung fu used to claim all the time it could deal with the ground aspect. Last I checked they never did bjj on the lei tai. Anyone can make any claim.
Hardwork8 makes the claim about his secret wing chun system all the time. Do you believe him as well?
also, Joi Bot Sien (Eight Drunken Immortals) form (it isn’t a style) contains a myriad of groundfighting techniques, such as throws, sweeps, suplex, mount, bump/arch/roll, side control, shrimping, triangles, armbars, etc. It’s all in there, albeit of course it’s not as developed as Judo’s ne-waza, or BJJ, but it’s in there nonetheless.
The problem is, there are just SOOO many EXPERTS, writing articles, doing vids, that the general public/MA public thinks that Drunken form IS a style (Drunken Fist) and is all about staggering, and flopping around like a flounder. The problem is that these “experts,” only have Contemporary Wu-Shu knowledge..oh, and whatever they’ve seen in movies and conjured up from their own imagination.
However, ask people who have learned the form from such systems as Mantis, Monkey, Tibetan White Crane, and Choy Li Fut, and their opinions (if they’ve been taught) will be much different.
Sorry to sound like HW108…but there’s just too much crap out there.
And yes, youtube only proves that there is so very little real good TCMA out there.
Especially, the ones done by “experts.”
(sigh..)
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1139588]Why do you live close to Brazil? why dont you learn Ju jitsu? just becuase BJJ is a fad? no one has ever heard of it before this fad took off yet its been taught since the laste 40’s I would seek out to cross train with ever style not just BJJ, it sucks for MMA[/QUOTE]
It was just an example you can add any Martial Arts which has an extensive Ground work on it instead.
I just wanted to say thats not a big deal for me that many Chinese Martial Arts have no Groundwork like BJJ, or Judo or Luta Livre. In my style Siu Lam Weng Chun we also have groundfighting but its different from BJJ as this groundfighting is mainly to get up again and not to finish the job there like you would do maybe in a Judo.
I had a few exchanges with guys who do MMA, Luta Livre and so on. In my opionion they have a more extensive training in Groundfighting as for example my style does. Lots of locks,chocks and so on, when we both on the mat there are so many positions where a good groundfighter, sees and feels the posbility for a lock or so on I simply doesnt feel. In my opionion its because of that that we are not used to train much on the floor and practice locks and so on from groundfighting.
I also have heard that besides Dog Style Monkey Fists overs some ground techniques but I have been told they are also mainly for getting up again. But I dont know how far this is true, as I have never seen this.
Kind regards,
Xian
The lack of ground fighting, in most martial art systems, likely stems from the fact that many of them were developed or refined during times of war.
Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.
Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.
Hum, thats funny I find many applications of tcma incredibly impractical and unrealistic in concern with self defense.
[QUOTE=LivingArt;1139694]The lack of ground fighting, in most martial art systems, likely stems from the fact that many of them were developed or refined during times of war.
Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.[/QUOTE]
That’s pretty unfortunate that you have that outlook, considering that grappling is the best way to negate grappling. Also, just because you do not want to end up on the ground doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t train it in case you end up there. As I said, grappling negates grappling and rooting, sprawling, and hooking will allow you to stuff your opponent’s takedown.
Street scenirio, guy shoots on you, single or double leg, you sprawl on him with your chest on his back. Now you want the situation to go away and if you stand back up he may try to take you down again. From the sprawl you spin and take back mount and sink in a rear naked choke. Guy goes out, you get up and walk away.
Ask yourself this, what is the difference in controlling with the choke or pounding the guy with strikes while sprawled. You are still down, you have vision to where you can look around to make sure he does not have friends attacking you. Like I said if you stand up who’s to say he does not take you down again??
The point is for all saying the ground is not where I want to be sometimes you don’t have a choice in the matter.
[QUOTE=RWilson;1139658]And the video evidence is…where? Kung fu used to claim all the time it could deal with the ground aspect. Last I checked they never did bjj on the lei tai. Anyone can make any claim.
Hardwork8 makes the claim about his secret wing chun system all the time. Do you believe him as well?[/QUOTE]
You need to re-read what I wrote.
As for video evidence of Sifu Patterson’s guys doing ground work, I have nev3er seen any so I can’t comment on that.
[QUOTE=LivingArt;1139694]The lack of ground fighting, in most martial art systems, likely stems from the fact that many of them were developed or refined during times of war.
Wrestling/ground arts are great for sports and law enforcement, but outside of these instances i find them incredibly impractical.[/QUOTE]
You need to get out more.