I haven’t see a thread relating a style that do both punch, kick, throws and ground fighting in TCMA in the past history as long as we can recollect written data. I can see some moves with some styles, sweeping, clinch, etc, but I don’t see ground fighting techniques as in ju jitsu. Back in the 70’s judo or jujitsu was replaced by all the craziness of kung fu during and after BL. What I am wondering is that ground fighting has always existed as martial arts of the world. Can someone can bring some light to why in TCMA there is no ground fighting as in Jujitsu. I know about shuai jiao but I don’t categorize as ground fighting. If this topic has been covered extensively I will appreciate to point to those threads.
[QUOTE=Firehawk4;1289501]Dog Boxing kung Fu Gou Quan .[/QUOTE]
Really, so in your opinion this style is equal as jujitsu? or fighting on the ground? I am trying to find out why I haven’t seen a style similar to jujitsu in China though most of the Japanese martial arts originated from mainland China. Maybe Sanjuro has a different opinion among those who may understand what I am trying to understand. ??
In all seriousness because Japan has warm, comfortable, smooth flooring inside its buildings where people don’t wear shoes and kneel on the floor anyway. Grappling seems like the way to go. China has filthy, rough, cold flooring everywhere even inside and no one wants to roll around on the floor unless they really really have to.
[QUOTE=-N-;1289500]In TCMA, after takedown you stab the enemy.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, this point is lost to these idiots. They don’t realize how modern fighting like BJJ truly is. Here’s another question that’s thrown around in JMA “Why is there such a short time limit in ground fighting in Judo?” Answer - “because you don’t fight on the f***ing ground.” People used to carry pointy things that can kill you.
In Japanese culture, warriors carried primary weapons and hidden weapons. Empty-hand fighting was for losers who were unskilled enough to lose their weapons. Empty-hand fighting was a last ditch method that would probably result in death anyways. Standing or on the ground without a weapon were terrible ways to face someone wielding a katana, spear or naginata.
Most (all) iterations of Kung Fu that are available today, styles and such do not offer any wrestling or ground fighting techniques.
Most all styles are void of such things. Locking and throwing are found in all styles pretty much, but wrestling etc is simply not part and parcel to Kung Fu.
For the same reasons grappling or ground fighting isn’t part of boxing or kick boxing and boxing is not part of wrestling etc. Kung Fu as Chinese martial arts go is kick/punch/throw/ lock. Best to pick up any grappling skills elsewhere. You might get a tip or a trick off a sifu but if s/he is not versed in another system that addresses this specifically, then that doesn’t cover the scope of it. many people up their game with BJJ, GR wrestling or Judo. All reasonable and complimentary arts.
In Japan, it was (is) common to sit/kneel on the floor when visiting in homes and some other places. So it also makes sense that if attacked while on the floor, and if he’s unable to immediately access his weapon, the MAist would need skills to deal with that situation. And such attacks would almost certainly have involved short weapons such as tantos. The idea is NOT to engage in an extended grappling match, but to be able to defend against and dispatch the enemy.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1289509]GR wrestling or Judo. All reasonable and complimentary arts.[/QUOTE]
Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.
Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it’s fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1289504]“Why is there such a short time limit in ground fighting in Judo?” Answer - “because you don’t fight on the f***ing ground.” People used to carry pointy things that can kill you.[/QUOTE]
And there’s the difference between sport and combat.
In traditional ghetto-fu, if you get taken to the ground, 3 homies kick you in the head.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1289511]Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.
Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it’s fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely.
And the idea that the samurai would have willingly chosen to go to the ground and grapple with an opponent on the battlefield, as I’ve heard some people on other websites suggest, is ridiculous.
I’ve even heard many purely sport-fighting proponents say that that’s a cliche and either doesn’t happen, or isn’t a factor. Which doesn’t mean grappling skills aren’t important, but that they have their place. And some situations are less appropriate than others.
bjj teaches using an opponent as a shield while lying on the ground against multiple opponents, its still more realistic than wing chun.
traditional folk wrestling usually emphasize holding an enemy on the ground where your team mates can finish him off. wrestling was required against armored elite troops in ancient times.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1289511]Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.
Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it’s fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.[/QUOTE]
This is a correct but misleading statement. Groundfighting existed in Euro lines of combat. It was simply not viewed as a separate class of fighting from the primary armed skills. The separation is post-Reniassance (and FYI, a number of those “traditional” skills you’ve listed aren’t really all that old). Groundfighting was historically avoided in armed warfare but it was not excluded. It was simply ground killing more than ground fighting. It was just one end of a spectrum of ranges of armed combat, though one not particularly favored. For all the mud that ego hurt traditionalists like to try and throw at MMA, MMA strikers are probably the closest analogue to this on common display.
But this is all non sequitur to the point of TCMA and its absence of developed groundwork, which has as much to do with societal norms as it does this notion of hidden pointy things in someones frog suit. People (non-Chinese) need to stop trying to frame every question about kung fu in terms of making assumptions about practicality and do more work into trying to understand kung fu anthropologically.
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1289517]People (non-Chinese) need to stop trying to frame every question about kung fu in terms of making assumptions about practicality and do more work into trying to understand kung fu anthropologically.[/QUOTE]
People need to stop worrying about what’s not in tcma and start focusing on what’s in tcma.
[QUOTE=bawang;1289516]traditional folk wrestling usually emphasize holding an enemy on the ground where your team mates can finish him off.[/QUOTE]
From Art of War to modern military boot camp, it’s about teamwork.
“It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy’s one, to surround him; if five to
one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two.”
[QUOTE=MightyB;1289518]People need to stop worrying about what’s not in tcma and start focusing on what’s in tcma.[/QUOTE]
Who’s worrying. Let us not make it complicated. In general, if there is a fight, chances is that ground fighting is inevitable, so what do you when someone is versed in ground fighting, come on let’s be realistic. I am not here to debate all styles against jj or bjj but to understand what happened in China. Someone made the remark about weapons without the need to know how to fight with fist, kicks or else and bawang accurately mentioned about ground fighting in ancient times.
My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.
[QUOTE=-N-;1289519]From Art of War to modern military boot camp, it’s about teamwork.
“It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy’s one, to surround him; if five to
one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two.”[/QUOTE]
ground fighting has perfect historical sense and is definitely not a modern invention. its just a matter of limited time for training.
in ancient set piece grand battles if your weapon or armor breaks or if the enemy is too heavily armored then your only chance of survival is to wrestle and entangle him. this is why every traditional wrestling style counts victory as making your opponent land in a vulnerable position or pin him down for an amount of time. groundfighting is just the continuation of that, trying to help you survive and win under disadvantage.
My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.[/QUOTE]
ground fighting is difficult to learn and that is the only reason it was not common. ju jitsu was already a small elite art and ne waza was even more uncommon and obscure.
in chinese qin na most of the legitimate techniques you just tense all your muscles and hold the opponent with all your strength to buy time and it generally worked fine in ancient battles. in civilian world ground fighting isnt fun to watch so it never developed.
Standing or on the ground without a weapon were terrible ways to face someone wielding a katana, spear or naginata.