What about Bartitsu, is is still being taught out there?
in the UK I think there is a school or 2… frost might know.
[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1053996]
so legends says:p[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1053998]key words there. :)[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t doubt it… historically the Japenese adopted, adapted, and transformed much of they learned from the Chinese through centuries of forceful cultural exchanges between the 2 nations.
Historically it is said that the Okinawans merged ch’uan fa into their fighting style TE… calling it To-de (Chinese hands) or Kara-te.
Due to nationalism in the 1700s in Japan, the character for “Chinese,” was changed to one meaning “empty,” so the new translation meant “empty hand.”
It is a great thing when an instructor does not have a huge ego and can admit that the “holes” in their game can be filled by someone more knowledgable. In the end, the students are the ones who prosper from this. My instructor was like this, and I appreciated the knowledge and guidance he gave me in not only what he did, but what others could do for me that he could not. Respect to you for doing the same.
Thank you brother. I will always feel CLF’s stand up game is very good. Still the style isn’t going to make you the better fighter, its what you put into your training. I’m “OK” at stopping certain take downs but compared to someone who ONLY works from the ground and you’re on the ground now…and have NO effective answers from this position then as a fighter it would encourage me to fix my flaws and come back and try and try again till it finally works out.
Regardless, if my students began learning BJJ…they’re learning the ground game. i would NEVER take my students to learn another hand system because i TOTALLY believe in the hands of CLF. But since my system doesn’t offer up a ground game there’s nothing wrong with supplimenting it with something that will benefit you all the way around. it would NOT change my CLF at all but will be a great compliment to each other.
Iron_Eagle_76: you’re right. it’s the students that beneift in the end. I think they’d even thank you for that. IMHO
to many holes present in the “history” of MA’s for any of us to state to many facts.
Bartitsu
is that JuJitsu while taking the B.A.R.T. train? (Bay Area Rapid Transit). 
[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1053999]What about Bartitsu, is is still being taught out there?[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
only if you get a part in a sherlock holmes movie. lol
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1054009]is that JuJitsu while taking the B.A.R.T. train? (Bay Area Rapid Transit). :p[/QUOTE]
nah, it’s a person who works at Starbucks that’ll mess you up if you don’t order correctly:p
Historically it is said that the Okinawans merged ch’uan fa into their fighting style TE… calling it To-de (Chinese hands) or Kara-te.
Every MA culture adapts/adopts what works, why wouldn’t they?
This doesn’t mean that JJ came from China, only that JJ adopted certain elements of Wushu, just as the Te masters did.
Just like the SC masters adapted Judo 
Its a cool circle jerk, lol !
Only someone who’s ass did NOT depending on their MA being combat effective would NOT adopt something that has been proven to work over and over, perhaps better than what they were currently doing.
There is a lesson there people.
only if you get a part in a sherlock holmes movie. lol[/QUOTE]
the “underground” fight sequence was nicely shot:)
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054012]Every MA culture adapts/adopts what works, why wouldn’t they?
This doesn’t mean that JJ came from China, only that JJ adopted certain elements of Wushu, just as the Te masters did.
Just like the SC masters adapted Judo
Its a cool circle jerk, lol !
Only someone who’s ass did NOT depending on their MA being combat effective would NOT adopt something that has been proven to work over and over, perhaps better than what they were currently doing.
There is a lesson there people.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you… it has always been my frame of thinking. My heart belongs to the beauty of CMA but my mind is open to learn from all other styles and incorporate what I find effective to my personal arsenal.
The way I see it is… you never know what the other guys knows so, might as well be prepared.
I have also gone to some medieval combat and ancient combat seminars (not martial arts related) that were pretty cool and learned a lot from in addition to military & police trainings… on that subject:
have any of you ever seen a South Korean National Police officer in action?
I was there for a training back in the 90s and those guys are some bada** mofos… like modern day ninjas with sub machine guns, hand guns, knives, explosives, etc.
[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1054020]I totally agree with you… it has always been my frame of thinking. My heart belongs to the beauty of CMA but my mind is open to learn from all other styles and incorporate what I find effective to my personal arsenal.
The way I see it is… you never know what the other guys knows so, might as well be prepared.
I have also gone to some medieval combat and ancient combat seminars (not martial arts related) that were pretty cool and learned a lot from in addition to military & police trainings… on that subject:
have any of you ever seen a South Korean National Police officer in action?
I was there for a training back in the 90s and those guys are some bada** mofos… like modern day ninjas with sub machine guns, hand guns, knives, explosives, etc.[/QUOTE]
The elite units of the Japanese police are nothing to sneeze at too.
[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1054013]the “underground” fight sequence was nicely shot:)[/QUOTE]
yeah, but Downey is a wing chun guy and the better part of that scene was lifted from wing chun techniques.
still, the art you are refering to did exist. I don’t think it does anymore.
It was some racist chappy who went and learned some asian martial arts and then didn’t give cred where cred was due.
much like the French and their Savatte which they lifted from asian martial arts as well.
or…american kempo. lol, although it does give some cred, it is misplaced a lot. lol
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]You are being willfully ignorant here.[/quote]
No, you are the one who is being willfully ignorant here!!!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]No it does not adequately address ground fighting in the sense of actually understanding control positions, slips and escapes, submission holds etc.[/quote]
The word “adequately”, is subjective. Besides, we were not discussing the “adequately” aspect of TCMA and TJMA techniques, but their existance!!!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]There are no karate styles or kung fu styles that deal with this stuff.[/quote]
Well, you have been told by people who know better, that they do train the ground scenario!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]the closest thing to a grappling art in cma is shaui chiao and that is more of a throwing art (throw horn).[/quote]
Thank you for mentioning that, because I used to think that SC was a type of food, before reading your enlightening sentence…
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]some guys lay claim to snake or dog boxing as covering it, but it doesn’t at all when actually reviewed.[/quote]
Many styles cover the ground scenario. Just because they do not do it to your specifications does not mean that there is not ground fighting in the TCMAs and TJMAs!!!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]I have good experience in Okinawan karate having been a practitioner prior to other arts pursuits[/quote]
The world, and this forum, is full of people who have “good experience”:rolleyes: in karate and specially, kung fu…LOL!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]and I can tell you out and out that you are wrong about ground fighting in these as well.[/quote]
Well, in this very thread two kung fu SIFUS have come out and disagreed with your position. They are EarthDragon and Mooyingmantis. Furthermore, I have told you that groundfighting is taught in my Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun. We have had Machida’s quote about his Shotokan karate. The poster, Goju, who should obviously know, has agreed with me as well.
So, perhaps you should stop grasping at straws and admit that you were wrong, as there is nothing wrong with being wrong, specially in this forum, where most of the posters don’t even practice kung fu, and would not know the genuine stuff, even if it fell on their heads.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]Why do you insist on banging your head against the wall with this.
You are wrong, period. Listen and learn for a change. It will take you further in your understanding which is demonstrably inadequate so far.[/quote]
It is entertaining, but somewhat sad, watching you vainly attempting to save the remenants of your credibility. Well, here is the easy way, just say that you were wrong, and that the TCMAs and the TJMAs do take into account the ground scenario, and then say the usual, “But BJJ is better”, line. 
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]as for the “thousands of styles” that’s a crock really. There are very slight and minor variations across styles that in reality do not change what does and what doesn’t work. Often these stylistic changes are minor and irrelevant to the efficacy of the art.[/quote]
Well, if you look at them superficially, which most newbies do, then they might all look the same…
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]More often than not, this reference of hundreds of arts is thrown out as a cover to what people DON’T know as opposed to what they do. It’s an obfuscation tactic to say something as stupid as “well there’s thousands of them and you can’t know them all so I guess I’m right”.[/quote]
You are trying to delibrately mislead and put words into my mouth. I remind you that there are sifus in this very thread that disagree with you!!!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]When in fact, all that is is an evasive weasel tactic. Do you really think there are huge differences in how someone is going to punch you, kick you, choke you, throw you?[/quote]
You are babbling. The fact is that you said that the TCMAs and the TJMAs did not address the ground scenario. Then I and various others demonstrated to you, and others of the same opinion as yours, that you were utterly WRONG!
So, why are you complicating the matter? Just say sorry, and move along…!!!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]the differences are a few, but really not that many.[/QUOTE]
Even if the differences are few, they are still more than you think!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053976]You are digging a hole even deeper than the one you were in before.[/quote]
I still have to dig a lot more to reach you.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053974]seriously, your ignorance is a shining beacon at this point man.[/QUOTE]
This from a man who thought that Japanese Jujitsu involved only ground fighting…LOL!
[QUOTE=Drake;1053979]I can’t think of a single good reason why you’d not want to cross train with ground fighting. I mean, it’s a good thing to have in the event your stand up game goes to the ground. [/quote]
Hey, people can do what they want, but they cannot SAY what they want about the TCMAs or the TJMAs, when their point of reference is incomplete.
So, yes if one practices what one claims to be “kung fu”, and sees it to be “incomplete”, then sure fine, he can go ahead and cross train. The problem is that when he and his ilk, make generalized ignorant comments such as there is no ground game in the WHOLE WIDE WORLD OF TCMAs and TJMAs, and then go on to throw in more clueless comments such as Japanese Ju Jitsu is solely a ground fighting style…yes, I can just imagine those Samurai’s rolling on the battle field ground for half an hour…:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1054073]I still have to dig a lot more to reach you.[/quote]
I can read your messages and understand your perspective quite clearly thank you, so if you are seeking to enlist others to your own peculiar brand of thoughtforms, I will decline your offer thanks.
This from a man who thought that Japanese Jujitsu involved only ground fighting…LOL!
I thought no such thing. You presume what I was writing in context to modern usage in sport where jj is alive and well, however it has many techniques that are not allowed due to current rulesets.
[QUOTE=Frost;1053980]Nope actually you were on your usual TCMA has everything but none of you have studied the real deal/ you are all MMA knuckleheads rant[/quote]
Hey, if you got the meaning of what I was saying, then why do you always make me repeat myself?
Read David Jamieson’s posts, without laughing, if possible…
Of course they did…LOL
Didn’t you know, all the TCMAs originate from bjj…:rolleyes:
We can argue about which is more effective till the cows come home. That is not the question, the question was wether ground fighting techniques existed in the TCMAs and the TJMAs. The answer was YES!
Wether they come up to the standards of the arts practices by the various members of this forum is another question for another thread.
I did not say anything about SPM. I mentioned Wing Chun (Mainland Chinese Lineage), and no there are no Youtube videos, to my knowledge, of that. So, I guess, if there are no videos then these things do not exist in the knucklehead universe…LOL!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1054086]I can read your messages and understand your perspective quite clearly thank you, so if you are seeking to enlist others to your own peculiar brand of thoughtforms, I will decline your offer thanks.[/quote]
There are people here that agree with my “peculiar brand of thoughtforms”, and two of them actual kung fu sifus, thank you very much.
Yes, the TCMAs and the TJMAs such as karate, take into account the ground scenario!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1054086]I thought no such thing. You presume what I was writing in context to modern usage in sport where jj is alive and well, however it has many techniques that are not allowed due to current rulesets.[/QUOTE]
I have yet to come along a MA rule set, including JJ, that does not allow standing up…LOL!