[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053958]LOL Machida has a BJJ black belt![/QUOTE]
Yes, but read his words, quoted by Goju!
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053957]Still waiting on your response about Machida, who you know so much about, and his traditional Shotokan training, you know so much about. Funny how you like to ignore those facts presented to you. Also, what is your expertise in Okinawan Karate, since now you seem so informed regarding those styles. I know, cut and paste, cut and paste.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Yes, but as I said to Master Killer, read Machida’s own words,as to how he describes his karate.
If he decided to practice BJJ to enhance his sports fighting, then that is fine too. The question here is, wether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES!
The question here is, wether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES!
you answered with yes. Everyone else answer with verying comments.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053970]Yes, but as I said to Master Killer, read Machida’s own words,as to how he describes his karate.
If he decided to practice BJJ to enhance his sports fighting, then that is fine too. The question here is, wether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES![/QUOTE]
That might have been the question those little voices in your head were asking but it is not the question here, here the question was question was can you construct a MMA system from TCMA styles (read the thread title if you are in doubt of the subject matter ), MMA refers to the sports environment so no you cant and Machida has admitted as much by getting a BJJ blackbelt in order to compete in MMA
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1053929]Too bad that doesn’t work against a resisting opponent.[/QUOTE]
In this case there’s nothing to “resist.”
Here’s an example of something like what I’m talking about in a competitive environment, done with speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg
Here’s another demo with fingerless gloves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwM7fAqN6f0
Now these are a little different than what I’m talking about which is to lead the punch and then directly strike the joint.
EO
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053970]Yes, but as I said to Master Killer, read Machida’s own words,as to how he describes his karate.
If he decided to practice BJJ to enhance his sports fighting, then that is fine too. The question here is, whether the TCMAs and traditional karate deal with the ground scenario, and that has been answered, with a YES![/QUOTE]
You are being willfully ignorant here.
No it does not adequately address ground fighting in the sense of actually understanding control positions, slips and escapes, submission holds etc.
There are no karate styles or kung fu styles that deal with this stuff.
the closest thing to a grappling art in cma is shaui chiao and that is more of a throwing art (throw horn).
some guys lay claim to snake or dog boxing as covering it, but it doesn’t at all when actually reviewed.
I have good experience in Okinawan karate having been a practitioner prior to other arts pursuits and I can tell you out and out that you are wrong about ground fighting in these as well.
Why do you insist on banging your head against the wall with this.
You are wrong, period. Listen and learn for a change. It will take you further in your understanding which is demonstrably inadequate so far.
as for the “thousands of styles” that’s a crock really. There are very slight and minor variations across styles that in reality do not change what does and what doesn’t work. Often these stylistic changes are minor and irrelevant to the efficacy of the art.
More often than not, this reference of hundreds of arts is thrown out as a cover to what people DON’T know as opposed to what they do. It’s an obfuscation tactic to say something as stupid as “well there’s thousands of them and you can’t know them all so I guess I’m right”.
When in fact, all that is is an evasive weasel tactic. Do you really think there are huge differences in how someone is going to punch you, kick you, choke you, throw you?
the differences are a few, but really not that many.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053947]Most Okinawan based styles of Karate have Tuite, which is joint minipulation, mostly standing. It is very similiar to Chin na found in CMA. Niether addresses the ground scenierio as well as Judo or BJJ in regards to groundwork and submissions.[/quote]
The question was not which is better. The question was wether the ground fighting scenario was covered in TCMAs and Karate. The answer, unknown to you and your “MMA is Best” friends, was a big UNKNOWN.
Well, now you know, the TCMAs and the Traditional Karate, take into account the ground scenario.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053947]FYI, Machida is a black belt in BJJ, I’m sure this plays a bigger part in Machida’s ground game than his Karate training,[/quote]
Again, that was not the question. Machida could have a black belt in Mongolian wrestling, and that would not change the fact that his karate takes into account the groundfighting scenario. End of story!!!
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053947]although his father’s system, the great Yoshizo Machida, has one of the most respected Karate systems.[/quote]
I am sure that his father will be eternally grateful for your knowledgable compliments for his karate…
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053947]Also, his father advocated cross training, but I’m sure you knew that, huh princess.;)[/QUOTE]
Hey, I might cross train if I was to enter sports tournaments, however, I don’t need to cross train my kung fu for the street. So again, that is not the point.
The point is that karate and kung fu take into acccount the ground scenario. Hey, now that you and your MMA lot are here, then you might as well learn something about the TCMAs…:rolleyes:
You are digging a hole even deeper than the one you were in before.
seriously, your ignorance is a shining beacon at this point man.
[QUOTE=Frost;1053972]That might have been the question those little voices in your head were asking but it is not the question here, here the question was question was can you construct a MMA system from TCMA styles (read the thread title if you are in doubt of the subject matter ), MMA refers to the sports environment so no you cant and Machida has admitted as much by getting a BJJ blackbelt in order to compete in MMA[/QUOTE]
I was referring to the question that came along later, when most of the clueless in this forum were not aware that the TCMAs and the TJMAs took into account the ground scenario.
Threads evovle sometimes…
And as I stated before, I might cross train too, if I was entering a sports competition whose rules favored a certain way of fighting.
I can’t think of a single good reason why you’d not want to cross train with ground fighting. I mean, it’s a good thing to have in the event your stand up game goes to the ground.
And most thugs don’t do the rock 'em sock 'em with you. They like to RASSLE!
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053977]I was referring to the question that came along later, when most of the clueless in this forum were not aware that the TCMAs and the TJMAs took into account the ground scenario.
Threads evovle sometimes…
And as I stated before, I might cross train too, if I was entering a sports competition whose rules favored a certain way of fighting.[/QUOTE]
Nope actually you were on your usual TCMA has everything but none of you have studied the real deal/ you are all MMA knuckleheads rant without actually reading the thread or its context, show me where anyone said TCMA does not take into account eh ground in some form? what was said what that what they might have was very limited, largely made up/nicked from judo, not very useful and nothing as comprehensive as BJJ or Judo.
As Ronin said some arts might have techniques for the ground but they do not come near to BJJ/Judo and as such most Japanese masters also studied judo, on the ground you need to be able to move and have an idea of positional dominance and NO tcma has that
Now if you are ageing that your wing chun and SPM has a comprehensive ground system then please show it in action 
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053975]The question was not which is better. The question was wether the ground fighting scenario was covered in TCMAs and Karate. The answer, unknown to you and your “MMA is Best” friends, was a big UNKNOWN.
Well, now you know, the TCMAs and the Traditional Karate, take into account the ground scenario.
Again, that was not the question. Machida could have a black belt in Mongolian wrestling, and that would not change the fact that his karate takes into account the groundfighting scenario. End of story!!!
I am sure that his father will be eternally grateful for your knowledgable compliments for his karate…
Hey, I might cross train if I was to enter sports tournaments, however, I don’t need to cross train my kung fu for the street. So again, that is not the point.
The point is that karate and kung fu take into acccount the ground scenario. Hey, now that you and your MMA lot are here, then you might as well learn something about the TCMAs…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
LMAO, I spent three years training in Okinawan Shuri-Te Karate from my cousin, who trained under Master Masao Higa while stationed in the Air Force in Okinawa. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to train with Higa as well during his trip here to the states. But please, by all means, since I am so clueless now in regards to Okinawan Karate, please let me hear your expertise. Okinawan Karate does not teach groundfighting. It teaches tuite, which is joint minupilation and standing locks, much like I described before and you so convienently ignored.
The fact is you are a deluded tool who is ingorant of what the training is of many posters on this site so you throw out the “clueless” this, “clueless” that garbage. The fact is you are ignorant beyond words in regards to the knowledge of many here yet make vast assumptions about this, just as you did with Karate. Now, I ask again, what is your training and experience in Okinawan Karate that makes you able to verify it has groundfighting?
The question was wether the ground fighting scenario was covered in TCMAs and Karate.
“covered” could mean a lot of things. “Covered” could be compared to someone throwing a bucket of paint on the wall, but we all know to get a master piece you have to spend time painting on the wall instead of throwing buckets at it.
yeah i guess if you want a generic hodpod of joint manipulation to takedowns to an armbar I guess some have it covered.
But if you want “real” ground work you could start talking of the changing of levels before the clinch, shots to the outside/inside, greco roman clinch work, to judo throws, to ground. from ground gaining position, through leverage, movement into verying position, shrimping, defense, keylocks, cross faces, nelson leverage, outside sweeps from bottom, rubber guard/butterfly guard, scramble uprights, sit turn outs, reversals, back spin to hooks, blah blah blah blah., i could go on and on.
but we all know thats all involved in TCMA’s…:rolleyes:
I can’t think of a single good reason why you’d not want to cross train with ground fighting. I mean, it’s a good thing to have in the event your stand up game goes to the ground.
And most thugs don’t do the rock 'em sock 'em with you. They like to RASSLE!
if you Don’t cross train in the weaker area’s that your system does not offer then you are selling yourself short.
I was watching a video on yoshida vs. royce gracie…no strikes…just judo vs BJJ…and royce lost. I have a gracie BJJ school very close to my apartment and i’m even considering taking my students over there to take some BJJ classes to fill in the gaps found in our ground game.
Traditionalists need to take heed of our elders as they’ve done during their time. adapt to the times or fall to the way side where things often get lost and forgotten
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1053989]if you Don’t cross train in the weaker area’s that your system does not offer then you are selling yourself short.
I was watching a video on yoshida vs. royce gracie…no strikes…just judo vs BJJ…and royce lost. I have a gracie BJJ school very close to my apartment and i’m even considering taking my students over there to take some BJJ classes to fill in the gaps found in our ground game.
Traditionalists need to take heed of our elders as they’ve done during their time. adapt to the times or fall to the way side where things often get lost and forgotten[/QUOTE]
Well said Frank.
The only tradition of the MA that we need to keep is the tradition of effectiveness.
Well said Frank.
The only tradition of the MA that we need to keep is the tradition of effectiveness.
I’mma take that compliment too Sanjuro…i think that’s the first time you said that to me LOL 
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1053993]I’mma take that compliment too Sanjuro…i think that’s the first time you said that to me LOL :D[/QUOTE]
It is a great thing when an instructor does not have a huge ego and can admit that the “holes” in their game can be filled by someone more knowledgable. In the end, the students are the ones who prosper from this. My instructor was like this, and I appreciated the knowledge and guidance he gave me in not only what he did, but what others could do for me that he could not. Respect to you for doing the same.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1053993]I’mma take that compliment too Sanjuro…i think that’s the first time you said that to me LOL :D[/QUOTE]
Really?
Well, it was long overdue then.
Jujutsu is CMA anyway… isn’t Chen Yuan Ping responsible for introducing it to the Japenese, or so legends says:p
legends says
key words there.