[QUOTE=goju;1053879]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRg2XTIzhmI
heres a hammed up demo of the goju sticky hands with some grappling in it[/QUOTE]
That is an excellent video, and more proof that karate styles such as Goju Ryu, address the ground scenario.
However, I am still hearing crickets singing in the background…
Perhaps the kung fu-clueless MMA lot, and their pseudo-kung fu friends think that the truth will go away if they just ignore it…LOL
I think many striking guys tend to confuse ground fighting with fighting FROM the ground.
Two different things.
There is a reason that any karateka wanting to develop a ground game goes to Judo and/or BJJ.
There is a reason that TCMA and sport CMA when they need to develop a ground game go to Judo and/or BJJ.
There is a reason that you don’t find submission grappling before the 20th century in TCMA manuals.
People can HOPE and Believe that those things were there from the very beginning, but that doesn’t make it so.
Here is a core basic principle that EVERY system that professes to address fighting on the ground must have:
Positional dominance.
If that is NOT the FIRST thing addressed then, well…enough said.
"Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system. "
Bruce Lee
[QUOTE=goju;1053879]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRg2XTIzhmI
heres a hammed up demo of the goju sticky hands with some grappling in it[/QUOTE]
Having spoken to Higaonna sensei a few times and having SEEN Goju in Okinawa I can tell you this:
Standing grappling and throwing was always part of the curriculm.
Ground work and chokes and subs on the ground were NOT.
They were added post WW2 after Goju was exposed to Judo from Japan.
[QUOTE=Frost;1053909]Heres my list of pure TCMA for MMA:
CLF for outside and longer range power striking and foot work
Hung gar for power and stability close in
Hakka art for close range striking and clinch work
SC for throwing and clinch
And the ancient art of tapping for the ground :o)
Why are guys so all bent up about using pure TCMA for everything, hll no art in china started off as pure anyway, , hung fut, CLF, bak mei, yung ling, Northern Mantis etc are all amalgamations of other styles (admittedly Chinese styles but then china was an isolated country for a long time) hung gar added in the long arm stuff and took sets whole sale from other arts, the iron wire set and the lau gar set for example, the masters who actually fought when they saw boxing and judo saw the benefits of these arts and most trained in one or the other or both (just like Ross’s master), hll when setting up the san shau programme the Chinese officials also brought in boxing experts as well as the best masters of the time…what does that tell you?
Do people really think that when wong fei hung was adding the longer range strikes to him village art after seeing how effective the lama style was that if he had also seen judo he wouldn’t have added its throws and ground work in just because they weren’t Chinese in origin?
These arts adapted to the changing times and skills of their opponents, who here can really argue that the masters of old were wrong for changing with the times and allowing their arts to change as a result?[/QUOTE]
it is amusing how many chinese stories start off with so and so mixing this art with another after cross training with another master and style but yet that flies over peoples heads:D
no one is ignoring Goju. And I’m sure he’ll even state that its not a complete spectrum of grappling as BJJ and Judo put forth.
your as dense as a slab of granite HW8.
The problem is if you want the best you go to the source. And TCMA is not the source of the answers for the ground game.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053934]I see that the TCMA-clueless MMA knucklehead majority of this forum have ignored this post of yours so far. [/QUOTE]
We ignored it because it is a demo and shows absolutely nothing. There is a reason you don’t see the majority of the techs in that clip when people go against resisting opponents… it’s because they don’t work.
If you are doing only demos and not actually training full force against resisting opponents, you really don’t “have” it in your style… you simply have the theoretical, fantasy version of what you think it should be like.
If you are doing only demos and not actually training full force against resisting opponents, you really don’t “have” it in your style… you simply have the theoretical, fantasy version of what you think it should be like.
THIS…
people take seeing people pull off techniques against someone lunging with a reverse punch from across the room as actual fighting. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053934]I see that the TCMA-clueless MMA knucklehead majority of this forum have ignored this post of yours so far.
I guess that if they don’t know about something then for all intents and purposes, it does not exist, and if you come along and say otherwise with proof and evidence, their fragile egos will just ignore it.
Machida was an execellent example. He practices traditional Shotokan Karate, including the katas and so on.[/QUOTE]
Most Okinawan based styles of Karate have Tuite, which is joint minipulation, mostly standing. It is very similiar to Chin na found in CMA. Niether addresses the ground scenierio as well as Judo or BJJ in regards to groundwork and submissions. FYI, Machida is a black belt in BJJ, I’m sure this plays a bigger part in Machida’s ground game than his Karate training, although his father’s system, the great Yoshizo Machida, has one of the most respected Karate systems. Also, his father advocated cross training, but I’m sure you knew that, huh princess.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1053941]Having spoken to Higaonna sensei a few times and having SEEN Goju in Okinawa I can tell you this:
Standing grappling and throwing was always part of the curriculm.
Ground work and chokes and subs on the ground were NOT.
They were added post WW2 after Goju was exposed to Judo from Japan.[/QUOTE]
yup im aware miyagi was a pal of kano and i believe they were thinking of addinga full judo curriculum to goju at one point in time no?
but i still see it as part of the curiculm despite the fact it wasnt there originally thus making it unpure lol
ground fighting is in bits of different arts whether it was always there or added in later the main thing is with that being said people have to realize whats there isnt generally enough..
sure it has some but i wouldnt enter a grappling tourney with just the goju ryu grappling under my belt
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053947]Most Okinawan based styles of Karate have Tuite, which is joint minipulation, mostly standing. It is very similiar to Chin na found in CMA. Niether addresses the ground scenierio as well as Judo or BJJ in regards to groundwork and submissions. FYI, Machida is a black belt in BJJ, I’m sure this plays a bigger part in Machida’s ground game than his Karate training, although his father’s system, the great Yoshizo Machida, has one of the most respected Karate systems. Also, his father advocated cross training, but I’m sure you knew that, huh princess.;)[/QUOTE]
Having visited Machida’s dojo when I was in Brasil a while back I can confirm what you just said.
While Machida-ryu karate still has Kata as part of their grading curriculm, it is a hybrid system that incorporated BJJ, Judo, Sambo and MT.
What they were very smart about doing though is that they kept the “karate flavour” to it and adapted Karate to deal with those systems and that is why Machida was/is successful, he brought something “different” to the ring.
[QUOTE=goju;1053948]yup im aware miyagi was a pal of kano and i believe they were thinking of addinga full judo curriculum to goju at one point in time no?
but i still see it as part of the curiculm despite the fact it wasnt there originally thus making it unpure lol
ground fighting is in bits of different arts whether it was always there or added in later the main thing is with that being said people have to realize whats there isnt generally enough..
sure it has some but i wouldnt enter a grappling tourney with just the goju ryu grappling under my belt[/QUOTE]
Yeah, some systems did add Judo while others just add some stuff, but very few ( if any) added a comprehensive newaza curriculum.
They did their best to ADDRESS the grappling problem they the Judo guys presented them.
Unfortunately there were too many “too deadly” guys at the helm and it never got implemented to the degree that it should so most just cross train in Judo and that is why so many of the upper level Karate guys ALSO have ranking in Judo and nowadays, BJJ.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053919]This is pretty much what should end this discussion. I find it humoring that a bunch of westerners act as though it’s a cardinal sin to cross train or add to their Kung Fu something that is not Chinese when most of the Chinese themselves would have or do cross train in these systems.[/quote]
Wait a minute, we have David Jamieson here that implies that he knows every TCMA and TJMA, together with modern traditional MT, and makes clueless generalized statements. Then you come along and imply that you know most of the Chinese MA population in China and beyond? LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL!!!
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053919]I find it absolutely ******ing hilarious to tell you the truth.[/quote]
Yes, me too…:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053919]If a style or system of fighting does not evolve and adapt, it is a dead style. Period.[/quote]
Yes, aren’t we lucky to have the MMA knuckleheads of this forum to come and “evolve” and “improve” arts that have evolved way beyond their comprehensions, like about 500 years ago…LOL
Aren’t we lucky to have an MMA knucklehead contingent here that are such geniuses that they can “evolve” and “improve” all of the TCMAs, without they, themselves having any genuine and meaningful kung fu study under their belts.
Of course, who needs serious TCMA study, when they can just take some kickboxing and grappling classes to qualify them to “improve” a thousand kung fu styles, at one go…:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053919]Times change, people change, situations and sceneirios change. I guarantee you that the ancient warriors these guys worship like gods would have adapted and used whatever worked for them, be it a chinese art or not.[/quote]
I don’t think anyone here has mentioned worshipping anyone!!!
Secondly, the ancient kung fu masters, may have (intelligently and relevantly) cross trained in other kung fu styles, but that was all they needed, as they actually studied kung fu and did not study some half baked Mcdojo version in some Shmucksville thousands of miles away in China.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1053919]Too many people get wrapped up in the mystical BS or engulfed in a culture they really do not understand, but think they do. My two cents.;)[/QUOTE]
Well, in your case, you had better understand the culture that spawned the arts, before you try and “evolve” them.
This thread, if anything, has proved how clueless about the TCMAs the MMA “forum gods” and the know it all, pseudo-kung fu-ists, together with their “decades of experience” really are!
The overall majority of you guys did not know about he existance of grappling and groundwork in the TCMAs (and the TJMA, apparently). When you were proved wrong, you and your fragile, not to mention clueless, egos, just ignore the fact and just repeat your “political line”.
I made relevant posts, EarthDragon and Goju, did so as well, but the MMA bird brains continue with their clueless agenda…LOL
There are others here that have no understanding of Internal body unity concepts of the TCMAs. More of you guys have only a basic understanding of two man exercises such as chi sao, and two man forms. There are more of you who do not understand the concepts behind the development forms and practices such as Iron Palm/Fist/Body.
Yet, most of you feel qualified enough to suggest improvements for thousands of TCMAs that have been around for thousands of years, based on your at best mediocre understanding of them.
One really could not invent this stuff…:rolleyes:
were you born a douchbag or did you just become one over time?
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053954]Wait a minute, we have David Jamieson here that implies that he knows every TCMA and TJMA, together with modern traditional MT, and makes clueless generalized statements. Then you come along and imply that you know most of the Chinese MA population in China and beyond? LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL!!!
Yes, me too…:rolleyes:
Yes, aren’t we lucky to have the MMA knuckleheads of this forum to come and “evolve” and “improve” arts that have evolved way beyond their comprehensions, like about 500 years ago…LOL
Aren’t we lucky to have an MMA knucklehead contingent here that are such geniuses that they can “evolve” and “improve” all of the TCMAs, without they, themselves having any genuine and meaningful kung fu study under their belts.
Of course, who needs serious TCMA study, when they can just take some kickboxing and grappling classes to qualify them to “improve” a thousand kung fu styles, at one go…:rolleyes:
I don’t think anyone here has mentioned worshipping anyone!!!
Secondly, the ancient kung fu masters, may have (intelligently and relevantly) cross trained in other kung fu styles, but that was all they needed, as they actually studied kung fu and did not study some half baked Mcdojo version in some Shmucksville thousands of miles away in China.
Well, in your case, you had better understand the culture that spawned the arts, before you try and “evolve” them.
This thread, if anything, has proved how clueless about the TCMAs the MMA “forum gods” and the know it all, pseudo-kung fu-ists, together with their “decades of experience” really are!
The overall majority of you guys did not know about he existance of grappling and groundwork in the TCMAs (and the TJMA, apparently). When you were proved wrong, you and your fragile, not to mention clueless, egos, just ignore the fact and just repeat your “political line”.
I made relevant posts, EarthDragon and Goju, did so as well, but the MMA bird brains continue with their clueless agenda…LOL
There are others here that have no understanding of Internal body unity concepts of the TCMAs. More of you guys have only a basic understanding of two man exercises such as chi sao, and two man forms. There are more of you who do not understand the concepts behind the development forms and practices such as Iron Palm/Fist/Body.
Yet, most of you feel qualified enough to suggest improvements for thousands of TCMAs that have been around for thousands of years, based on your at best mediocre understanding of them.
One really could not invent this stuff…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Still waiting on your response about Machida, who you know so much about, and his traditional Shotokan training, you know so much about. Funny how you like to ignore those facts presented to you. Also, what is your expertise in Okinawan Karate, since now you seem so informed regarding those styles. I know, cut and paste, cut and paste.:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053934]
Machida was an execellent example. He practices traditional Shotokan Karate, including the katas and so on.[/QUOTE]
LOL Machida has a BJJ black belt!
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1053956]were you born a douchbag or did you just become one over time?[/QUOTE]
you mean like how a catepillar eventually becomes a buterfly?
ive seen other shotokan stylist show abit of grappling in their style too so it was likely another influence from judo
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053958]LOL Machida has a BJJ black belt![/QUOTE]
Dude, ever hear the saying like ******ing in the wind. Just saying.
you mean like how a catepillar eventually becomes a buterfly?
in a poetic sense yes!