From my research , teachings, and practice I have found that CMA does have groundwork . What does everyone think about the existance of CMA groundwork? Not as sport but as an actual application of the material that we are taught.
CMA groundwork is based on the assumption that if you fall down, the other guy will not follow you to the ground to wrestle. So, it’s mostly attacks from the ground targeting a standing opponent, or movements to devised to get back on your feet as quickly as possible once you hit the ground.
Or, in an even worse trend, CMA guys with no clue as to how technical groundfighting is watch the UFC too much and figure they know how to fight on the ground when the guy follows him or falls with him, or imitates ground and pound by jumping on top of him, and they end up brawling on the floor, whereas a controlled and calm BJJ guy would make mincemeat out of him without breaking a sweat.
That’s my experience anyways. I remember in that first little bit of BJJ I was introduced to by a very good BJJ school, the black belts (2 of 'em in that class) would trounce you in a second, and they’d be so calm, whereas I and the other beginners were huffing and puffing with even the blue belts. You learn how technical it is very quickly. And untrained CMA guys just seem to imitate, with no strategy whatsoever, and therefore pretty much sucks on the ground. Not all of 'em. But most of what I’ve seen.
I learned some maneuvers on the ground in CMA. Never have someone to practice them with, and never had detailed instruction in how to employ them…so they’re pretty much useless. My assessment is pretty much MK’s, but I’m not as experienced, so maybe my opinion isn’t as well informed.
I fell into that trap before I cross-trained a little in BJJ (very briefly), and then realized I had no friggin’ clue what I was doing afterwards. So I stopped that bad habit right away–aiming for the ground. I started trying to keep on my feet when those other guys go for sloppy takedowns and such, to punish them. But when I hit the floor, I try to use the basics I learned (or, didn’t learn), and treat it like a learning experience, just to get the feel of it.
I’ll probably go back to take some lessons some day, to round out my skills. But right now my stand-up probably still sucks, so I’d better hone that first.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;770963]CMA groundwork is based on the assumption that if you fall down, the other guy will not follow you to the ground to wrestle. So, it’s mostly attacks from the ground targeting a standing opponent, or movements to devised to get back on your feet as quickly as possible once you hit the ground.[/QUOTE] I do not believe that this is correct. It just does not fall into accordance with Chinese philosophies.
If kung fu is well rounded and is based on Taoist yinyang principle then there would be many combinations. yang yang or both standing( greater yang ), yin yang one grounded and one standing ( lesser yin), yang yin one standing and one grounded (lesser yang ), or yin yin both grounded (greater yin).
This is the greater and lesser aspects of yinyang principle.
The combinations of yin yang or yang yin would be determined by which of the fighters was the weaker or stronger one on the ground or standing up.
The art I study has ground fighting. It is not similar to BJJ but it is there. It is based on takedown defense, and striking from the bottom position, with some sweeps thrown in. There is also strikes from one’s back at a standing opponent that is trying to get on top of you.
Further, we have takedowns and trips that utilize the mount and especially side-control with arm locks and striking. Often times the best way to neutralize someone is to take them down, bind them up, and subdue them. Utilizing the ground or a wall is very ideal for the application of any type of joint lock and so we train in that aspect as well.
[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;770972]I do not believe that this is correct. It just does not fall into accordance with Chinese philosophies.
If kung fu is well rounded and is based on Taoist yinyang principle then there would be many combinations. yang yang or both standing( greater yang ), yin yang one grounded and one standing ( lesser yin), yang yin one standing and one grounded (lesser yang ), or yin yin both grounded (greater yin).
This is the greater and lesser aspects of yinyang principle.
The combinations of yin yang or yang yin would be determined by which of the fighters was the weaker or stronger one on the ground or standing up.[/QUOTE]
Too bad reality doesn’t support your theory.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;770979]Too bad reality doesn’t support your theory.[/QUOTE]No , it is too bad YOUR REALITY does not support THIS FACT. So explain to us why it does not??
It’s your fruity theory, you do the explaining.
cool…
[QUOTE=WinterPalm;770977]The art I study has ground fighting. It is not similar to BJJ but it is there. It is based on takedown defense, and striking from the bottom position, with some sweeps thrown in. There is also strikes from one’s back at a standing opponent that is trying to get on top of you.
Further, we have takedowns and trips that utilize the mount and especially side-control with arm locks and striking. Often times the best way to neutralize someone is to take them down, bind them up, and subdue them. Utilizing the ground or a wall is very ideal for the application of any type of joint lock and so we train in that aspect as well.[/QUOTE] I do not understand how it is that many CMArtist can say that their art has no ground fighting other than what they bring into it from other styles . The philosophical principles, if applied to the art properly, proves that it does.
I would have to say that it is a lost or extinct aspect of the art for the most part.
How can animal styles not have ground work ??? Most animals are on all fours or on their bellies. It just does not make sense.
Not failing to mention the internal styles of Ba Gua Zhang , Tai Ji Quan , and Xin Yi Quan.
All these arts work with spheres and /or parts of spheres. If you know anything about these arts you know that you are walking in and out and around a sphere.
Why would/ do you think these same techniques can not /do not work on the ground??
If you say that they use only circular movements and not spherical movements then you are only thinking in a limited dimension world. Which is not reality.
They are multi-dimensional and work on all three planes of motion.
Your axis( spine ), dan tien( center of gravity ) appendages, brain, organs, etc ( tools) are in the same place whether you are standing or on the ground.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;770982]It’s your fruity theory, you do the explaining.[/QUOTE]How is fruity?? You explain why it does not… or is that the problem you can not??
I think CMA doesn’t do groundfighting in the usual modern sense. Small joint manipulation doesn’t count, nowadays. Sure, a groundfighter will say: I can manipulate your joints, too. But that’s just like a CMA’ist saying: hey, I can brawl like a brute on the ground, too. They’re ****ed good at getting large joint manipulations that would end a fight with more permanence (armbars, knee locks, ankle locks, etc), but a good finger lock or finger bite is highly underrated, and opens up a very good weakness to exploit.
They’re faster, and if you’re good, you can control the body with the smallest part. Plus, many groundfighters will leave these parts and weaknesses wide open (it is true, and I have seen it firsthand many times). Unfortunately, I didn’t have a camera on hand to videotape those classes and sessions.
Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand, finger, or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.
I think it’s the difference in waging a war of attrition (small, cripppling damages) vs. a war of complete and utter surrender (armbar). IF you can do both, you’re 10X better.
My CMA teacher once demonstrated many groundfighting techniques he could change into (all of them submission based, including armbars, etc.) from a common wrist lock that’s pretty easy to apply. All of it was CMA. I was pretty much screwed from the moment the small joint-lock was in place.
Small joint manipulation…sheesh.
We aren’t talking about techniques or joint locks. If you think ground fighting is only about the lock, then you know nothing about ground fighting at all.
Positional dominance and transitions are the main components of fighting on the ground. Without position, you cannot lock someone or hold them down.
CMA DOES NOT HAVE a method for training positional dominance or transitions from less dominant to more dominant positions, and without position, you cannot get a submission.
Disagree? Show me a pure CMA technique to pass the guard.
Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand, finger, or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.
You watch too many movies.
[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;770987]I think CMA doesn’t do groundfighting in the usual modern sense. Small joint manipulation doesn’t count, nowadays. Sure, a groundfighter will say: I can manipulate your joints, too. But that’s just like a CMA’ist saying: hey, I can brawl like a brute on the ground, too. They’re ****ed good at getting large joint manipulations that would end a fight with more permanence (armbars, knee locks, ankle locks, etc), but a good finger lock or finger bite is highly underrated, and opens up a very good weakness to exploit.
Where small joint manipulation is allowed, a good ground CMAist could break a hand or wrist pretty quickly. It would pretty much derail the groundfight.[/QUOTE]Not in the sense of too almost naked men rolling on the ground for long periods of time!!:rolleyes:LMAO
Well CMA has Large Sphere Chin na (shoulders, hips and torso) , Medium Sphere Chin Na( elbows, knees, and neck), and Small Sphere Chin Na ( wrist , ankles , fingers and toes). Although most CMArtist where shoes. So you will probably never use or practice those ones.:D( refering to the toe ones!!!
These can be applied on all three planes of motion. CMA is spherical and dynamic and not linear and static( at least not in fighting) and is constantly moving and changing.
[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;770990]Not in the sense of too almost naked men rolling on the ground for long periods of time!!:rolleyes:LMAO
Well CMA has Large Sphere Chin na (shoulders, hips and torso) , Medium Sphere Chin Na( elbows, knees, and neck), and Small Sphere Chin Na ( wrist , ankles , fingers and toes). Although most CMArtist where shoes. So you will probably never use or practice those ones.
These can be applied on all three planes of motion. CMA is spherical and dynamic and not linear and static( at least not in fighting) and is constantly moving and changing.[/QUOTE]
It’s pretty obvious you have no practical experience on the ground.
And shoes make it EASIER to lock the ankle or heel hook someone.
Lmao At You!!!
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;770988]Small joint manipulation…sheesh.
We aren’t talking about techniques or joint locks. If you think ground fighting is only about the lock, then you know nothing about ground fighting at all.
Positional dominance and transitions are the main components of fighting on the ground. Without position, you cannot lock someone or hold them down.
CMA DOES NOT HAVE a method for training positional dominance or transitions from less dominant to more dominant positions, and without position, you cannot get a submission.
Disagree? Show me a pure CMA technique to pass the guard.[/QUOTE]
Nor am I . CMA does not have training for postitional dominance or transitions from less or more dominant positions?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What CMA have you been learning… Keyboard kung fu ?? Modern Wu Shu?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You have no clue.
Pure CMA technique for passing the guard ?? What the hell does that mean??? I can use plenty of "pure CMA techinques to pass the guard "…
you my friend are …
Clueless
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;770988]Small joint manipulation…sheesh.
We aren’t talking about techniques or joint locks. If you think ground fighting is only about the lock, then you know nothing about ground fighting at all.
Positional dominance and transitions are the main components of fighting on the ground. Without position, you cannot lock someone or hold them down.
CMA DOES NOT HAVE a method for training positional dominance or transitions from less dominant to more dominant positions, and without position, you cannot get a submission.
Disagree? Show me a pure CMA technique to pass the guard.[/QUOTE]
Look, MK, I agree with you on positional dominance, guard, and transition. But you have to often sacrifice protection from small joint manipulation in order to get that kind of position or leverage. A good BJJ guy can trap my hands and render them immobile. But sometimes, even against the black belts I rolled with for like 5 seconds before they pinned me or submitted me (hahaha, but true), I knew I could grab that finger on my lapel instead of grabbing the wrist, and wrenched that sucker till it broke. It would keep him from grabbing me with that hand, or punching me with it (if BJJ had strikes). All I’m saying is that a good chin-na guy could do what I can do infinitely better.
BTW, there was a dude there with one arm that was severed at the elbow, and he was awesome, because he had mastered using leverage. But if I broke his one good hand, he’d be ****ed.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;770991]It’s pretty obvious you have no practical experience on the ground.
And shoes make it EASIER to lock the ankle or heel hook someone.[/QUOTE] How so ?? I was talking about the toe chin na.
Pure CMA technique for passing the guard ?? What the hell does that mean??? I can use plenty of "pure CMA techinques to pass the guard "…
Show me.
In fact, how about a clip of you demonstrating?
All I’m saying is that a good chin-na guy could do what I can do infinitely better..
And all the Chin Na in the world is useless without a system for training positional dominance, which CMA does not have because it was never the focus of Chinese systems in the first place.