I do have a question about these finger breaks if you guys care to share. i’ve never used it so i can’t say for sure if it works or the theory behind it.
I was told that the one finger you DO want to break is the ring finger. It is the one finger if you lay your hand flat on a table and lifted each one by one you’d notice that the ring finger is the hardest to lift. i was told that somehow the whole arm would be affected by this break.
any truth to it?
breaking fingers ends a fight the same way breaking a nose does.
As in, rarely.
On the other hand, I’ve seen lots of kids submitted by an ear pull from their mothers. 
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1053989]if you Don’t cross train in the weaker area’s that your system does not offer then you are selling yourself short.
I was watching a video on yoshida vs. royce gracie…no strikes…just judo vs BJJ…and royce lost. I have a gracie BJJ school very close to my apartment and i’m even considering taking my students over there to take some BJJ classes to fill in the gaps found in our ground game.
Traditionalists need to take heed of our elders as they’ve done during their time. adapt to the times or fall to the way side where things often get lost and forgotten[/QUOTE]
how sad - yet another supposed “traditionalist” falls by the wayside to go study an irrelevant system that does not conform to TCMA principles, instead of realizing that his TCMA actually contains everything needed to address ground fighting scenarios effectively and as well as, if not better than any other ground fighting based system out there; too bad Frank, I guess that you just didn’t study your art deeply enough, or perhaps your teacher held back information because of your poor moral character…
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1054210]I can’t say for sure if it works or the theory behind it. [/QUOTE]
I usually don’t like to say a technique work or not. If you train, it may work. If you don’t, it won’t. It’s just as simple as that.
The best way is to get different training partners, you try this on your different opponent 100 times each and get the “success-failure” ratio and draw conclusion all by yourself. The “finger break” and “finger split” can be effective if you have “strong intention” to break your opponent’s finger. During those experiment, you can figure out what will be your best body angle so it will be harder for your opponent to hit you.
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;1054210]I do have a question about these finger breaks if you guys care to share. i’ve never used it so i can’t say for sure if it works or the theory behind it.
I was told that the one finger you DO want to break is the ring finger. It is the one finger if you lay your hand flat on a table and lifted each one by one you’d notice that the ring finger is the hardest to lift. i was told that somehow the whole arm would be affected by this break.
any truth to it?[/QUOTE]
Here are some basic principles behind finger dislocations (rarely will the fingers actually break).
[QUOTE=Frost;1053911]The problem is if you attack the centre of gravity without knowledge of hip throws, body lock throws, level changes and clinch work you are in for a nasty surprise, now if you have that knowledge then its not a problem, Im not sure tai chi outside of the chen village has it, certainly not in the yang I have seen, and the bit of bak mei and dragon I did didnt have it either, your expertise in bakmei is greater than mine, so is it in there or are you having to go outside the art to work against them? Thats not an bad thing its great you are thinking like this I just wondered where you are working on it and with whom?[/QUOTE]
Yes exactly, this is the training I’m beginning to focus on, starting with some push hands style, but our rules include putting someone down. Add striking to that and you’ve got pretty close to essential Pak Mei. I’m salting the training with some quick and straight-forward subs, like guillotine from guard, and escape, grabbing a RNC on someone that turns to escape. Our basic fighting stance is low with arms forward, not to different to a basic wrestling stance, but with the arms a little more closed…
And I don’t know if you know this, but good Pak Mei can pull as hard as it can push.
Hey, early days, just.
[QUOTE=Frost;1053911]Firstly in mount you are in a control position so Im not too sure how this matches up with your original point of going straight for a sub rather than a control position? But that aside the problem is how effective is the move and how likely is it to be pulled off?
My experience tells me that to break a limb you have to control it, I havent seen many grab and hit breaks pulled off successfully, I have seen loads of arm bars pulled off and a lot of breaks in comps if people dont tap in time so I go with what I know works. And although it might take longer to perform (I say might because I have been arm locked way to quickly by guys for my liking) the control you have is constant so you dont need the split second to pull it off
Also note that in MMA (which was originally asked about) hitting straight on the joint is illegal in most comps (before a certain person, not you, starts to argue this is because its too dangerous for sports please note the commissions banned a lot of things out of ignorance not because they are too dangerous and that in the first MMA matches and still in vale tudo these things are legal but you never saw them pulled off)
Now if we are talking pure self defence not comps I would simply keep hitting him and I wouldnt be in mount but knee on stomach..I have seen guys finish fights with broken limbs but once you knock them out they tend to go limp :)[/QUOTE]
What can I say, its what we train. It has worked on the street. I don’t think of it as a sub, its what we call a finish.
One of my concerns these days is not sharing blood through busted knuckles.
On the other hand, I’ve seen lots of kids submitted by an ear pull from their mothers.
The ear pull is not as effective without that SICILIAN passion man…moms would snatch up my ear faster than Kwai Chang Caine did that pebble bro.
you can quickly elbow someone from that position if they are using their two hands against your one handed shove as my drawing shows
Refusal to acknowledge the importance of ground fighting is refusal to accept that the kick, punch, or joint lock may fail. Yet, with all of the CLF training I’ve done, there’s always a follow up in the first couple of hits fail. Why not think about what to do if someone successfully brings the fight to the ground? Are you just going to lay there like a defeated puppy, because you have nothing in your toolkit?
Never get yourself into such a training mindset where a particular scenario leaves you with no other option but to die.
Here are some basic principles behind finger dislocations (rarely will the fingers actually break).
Right on!
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1054215]1. Never tie up two hands on one if you are directly facing the opponent and are within punching range.[/QUOTE]
You will be safe if you can use your opponent’s leading arm to jam his back arm.
[QUOTE=goju;1054218]you can quickly elbow someone from that position if they are using their two hands against your one handed shove as my drawing shows[/QUOTE]
You should never control your opponent’s wrist without control his elbow at the same time. If your right hand control your opponent’s right wrist, and your left hand control his right elbow. If you pull his right arm to your right, at the same time if you move toward your left, you can use his leading right arm to jam his back arm. This way, he won’t be able to punch/elbow you with his left arm.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1054221]You will be safe if you can use your opponent’s leading arm to jam his back arm.[/QUOTE]
but then he’ll just go with his body in the direction of the jam, expose his back to instant paralysis and use one of those useless spinning backfists…
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1053973]In this case there’s nothing to “resist.”
Here’s an example of something like what I’m talking about in a competitive environment, done with speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg
Here’s another demo with fingerless gloves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwM7fAqN6f0
Now these are a little different than what I’m talking about which is to lead the punch and then directly strike the joint.
EO[/QUOTE]
What I especially liked about the first vid was the way the guy just ‘twitched’ and the elbow was done.
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1054223]but then he’ll just go with his body in the direction of the jam, expose his back to instant paralysis and use one of those useless spinning backfists…[/QUOTE]
When your opponent spins, he gives you his back and you can apply “head lock” on him. That 1/10 second “expose his back” should give you enough time to do your stuff. All BJJ guys will know that one should not turn his back to his opponent.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1054225]When your opponent spins, he gives you his back and you can apply “head lock” on him. That 1/10 second “expose his back” should give you enough time to do your stuff. All BJJ guys will know that one should not turn his back to his opponent.[/QUOTE]
depends how he spins - whether he stays in the same spot or goes off his line so that he is no longer directly in your “workspace”
When your opponent spins, he gives you his back and you can apply “head lock” on him. That 1/10 second “expose his back” should give you enough time to do your stuff. All BJJ guys will know that one should not turn his back to his opponent.
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CLF doesn’t just LAUNCH the spinning backfist. we do train to time it to our opponents strike or during his recoil. i agree just doing a spinning backfist by itself will totally give up the back. i also teach my students to be very stingy if not outright greedy with your back…try to never give it up.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1054222]You should never control your opponent’s wrist without control his elbow at the same time. If your right hand control your opponent’s right wrist, and your left hand control his right elbow. If you pull his right arm to your right, at the same time if you move toward your left, you can use his leading right arm to jam his back arm. This way, he won’t be able to punch/elbow you with his left arm.[/QUOTE]
Then why did you show the clip that you said would work when there was no elbow control?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1054174]Hey, cut the brother some slack !
It’s not my fault that you guys don’t get sarcasam !!
I knew a guy, tiger claw dude, he could bend a wrench, roll up a frying pan, do some serious crap with his grip and guess what? HE could make that **** work for him.
Could I? Nope.
Could you? Nope.
Could 99& of the people here? Nope.
But he could and that is where some of these “tales” come from, the genetic freaks that make them famous.[/QUOTE]
One of my guys is a waterproofer. He works a brush with heavy tar day in, day out. Fingertip push ups on concrete, the right way, and he’s got a grip you can’t break. I think it takes that kind of lifestyle that goes beyond training to achieve those kinds of skills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg
This one is very smiliar: