A Challenge....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Dave, I agree with the majority of what you say except these -

"I am sure that one would need to adjust ones fighting strategy depending on the environment. For example you would need to modify your approach if fighting in the jungle, a snowstorm or on a parking lot filled with broken bottles and glass or on a sandy beach. While many of the core concepts would remain the same the application of some of the “techniques” would need to be adjusted according to the surroundings. "

This I believe is not a matter of changing the art, unless of course you ONLY fight in one of these territories or environments. The idea is adaptability and the mistake is trying to adapt a system when you should be working on adapting your approach. If I am fighting on a parking lot of broken glass then I dont want to go to the ground, so I dont tackle the guy, this doesn’t recquire a change in strategy so much as tactics. this to me is adaptability of the individual and not the system.

“But, if YOUR Wing Chun does not have what you need then explore other arts and incorporate them into your art. Remember our art is one of concepts and you should be free to explore not be limited to a set pattern”

I think if your art doesnt have what it takes to cover all of your bases why bother unless you have an aesthetic interest? For example, if I wanted to study for sport then I would go to a sport type art. If I wanted to graple, I would go to a grappling art. If I wanted to perform I would go to performance type arts. If I wanted to defend myself I would choose an art that covers those bases. For me wing chun is the complete deal, and I dont need anything else. If your art doesnt cover atleast most o fthe possibilities when fighting (obviously most arts dont practice fighting in a swarm of insects while being attacked by dogs and jumped by martians, specifics aside most environments can be generalized for self defense purposes since fights tend to work ion a ‘micro’ scale instead of macro.) then maybe you should look at something else or look to other practitioners of the art for what you are missing?

42

Re: Ok Michael

Originally posted by yuanfen
Interestingly- your sigung who has been exposed to taiji
has said that he just does wing chun. And he has power enough without taiji.
Right David?

Joy,

That is correct. Ken Chung does not practice Taiji or yi quan, nor does he include any elements of it in our training. That said, he does appreciate their approach to sensitivity and power generation. It is however different from how we do things in Wing Chun.

And yes, Ken has more than enough power generation abilities without having to utilize any concepts or techniques from Taiji. Of course that doesn’t preclude folks from trying to say that he does teach “Taiji flavored wing chun” or some such other nonsense.

If the fools who made such comments had any understanding of what Taiji training and body mechanics are like in comparision to Wing Chun, they would not be making such ill informed statements. :rolleyes:

That said, Carl, while a student of Ken’s in Wing Chun, has studies other arts as well, such as Chen Taiji and Fu Family arts. That is his perogative to do so, there are no restrictions on students within our schools in terms of crosstraining etc. Some schools/lineages may frown on it, and others have a long history of cross training. How Carl may train his students is different then in some respects due to addition of Chen Drills etc. I don’t think that translates into doing their Wing Chun differently–in that I don’t think you’ll see cloud hands instead of a bong sau in their application in the sets or in chi-sao.

I think Taiji and Wing Chun take two very different paths up the mountain of martial skill. The body mechanics are different, the postures are different and the use of the dan tien is certainly different.

I think however, they are both about establishing a stable platform or “root” and about using linkages within the body for whole body power. I would think the approaches would be different, but perhpaps the “feeling” of connection may be similar.

As I’ve never done Taiji or taiji drills (other than once at a Sigman seminar and a Chen Qing Zhou Seminar), but I’ve felt taiji energy from touching hands and observed videos, it is hard to state definitavely. But if it helps someone to gain whole body connection, then that I think is a good thing.

I’ve wondered for instance (and off topic), if Yoga would be a good thing to improve one’s overall mind body connection. The important thing is to GET the connection and linkage and work on improving and maintaining it within the framework of Wing Chun Kuen. If training something else can get you to that “a-ha” point, then I think that’s a good thing, if it moves you forward on your path in Wing Chun.

I’ll leave it to Carl’s students to discuss their training approach with him and the reasonings behind it. I can only speak from the perspective of studying with both Ken Chung and with Ben Der.

regards,

David Williams

43

Re: red5

Originally posted by hunt1
Would you consider Ben Ders son Francis a good example of the WC you study?

Hunt1,

I seriously doubt red5 has met Lawrence, Francis, or Wally or had much interaction with Ben’s San Jose school.

  1. Francis is up in San Francisco last I heard and it’s been about a year or more since I’ve seen him. I think he may have a very very small Wing Chun working group these days, but I haven’t kept in touch with him, since he went off to business school. He is a REALLY REALLY nice guy and hopefully I’ll run into him again soon.

  2. Francis has not attended any of the SF based WC Camps that I’m aware of, unless he was there this year.

  3. Francis doesn’t attend Ken’s school or his father’s in San Jose.

Therefore, red5 has no foundation upon which to make a comparison between himself, Carl, Ben, Ken and Francis.

44

Planetwc

I agree Francis seemed like a very nice guy when we touched hands.He was a gentleman when we rolled and I enjoyed his WC.I asked because he is the only person from the Ken Chung Line I have rolled with,at least to my knowledge.

I am just trying to get a handle on what red5 is so gaga over.Francis is the only point of reference I have.
All I know about Carl stems from the incident at the Great lakes Tourney a few years ago and since I wasnt there its all just hearsay.

45

I heard about that. Involved evil clowns. Very scary.

46

Why scary?

47

The clowns, (who I believe were out of work rodeo clowns) were, well, evil.

48

Re: post coital retoric

Hi Byond,

>[QUOTE]Originally posted by byond
>[B]what is “good” is a very individual conclusion. someone may seem “good” when they chi sao with only “student level’ >practitioners. but are they” good" when chi saoing with some >one of the same calibur??

You touched my Sifu’s hands…so what is it you are trying to say here?

> red…if you went to 5 differant schools and at each school the >sifu was better than you…how would you make a discision >about what school to stay at?? sounds like chasing a ghost to >me

You seem to have been to a lot of schools looking for a teacher. Are you chasing the ghost?

>just because someone has better chi sao then me doesnt make >me want to forsake my sifu and my school. it makes me want to >train harder in my families style. and of course these are >learning experiances. which is the point of chi sao…to learn

Who is your teacher then? For a while I thought you were going to join our school. I didn’t know that you had a current teacher.

>carl should publicaly challenge all sifu to come touch hands if >he has something to prove about his skill level or if he wants to >attract students. but are we talking chi sao here or are we >talking fighting??? i know people with better chi sao than me >but who cant fight at all using what they do in the context of chi >sao. in fact ive seen alot of wc people who make things work in >chi sao but cant make any of it work when we spar.

Carl has nothing to prove to you or anyone else for that matter. We welcome all to come and train. You touched his hands, are you saying that in a straight up sparring session there would be a different result? I took it extremely easy on you when you came to our school to visit and thought you understood the reality before you…if you think differently please come back for a refresher course. Chi sau or sparring…you pick.

We were friendly with you when you visited, curious as to what your agenda really is? Perhaps you would be so kind as to reveal your cards…

Chris Snyder

49

Re: Planetwc

Hunt 1,

I’d be curious as to what you think you know about the Great Lakes Tourney a few years ago? I was the student involved and from what I have heard there is a lot of “BS” floating around in cyberspace. I would be happy to enlighten you on the actual events. The truth has a way of becoming distorted with each new telling…in fact in this case straight out lies are being told apparently.

Happy to inform,
Chris Snyder

Originally posted by hunt1
[ I am just trying to get a handle on what red5 is so gaga over.Francis is the only point of reference I have.
All I know about Carl stems from the incident at the Great lakes Tourney a few years ago and since I wasnt there its all just hearsay. [/B]

50

Chris a little paranoid?

Since I made no mention what so ever of what I heard how would you possibly know if what I was told was true or not?

I was told about it by several of Johns people,many WC people and a judge who all saw it first hand. I am sure you have your perception of events just like those not directly involved had theirs.No matter what version the result was embarrassing for WC and totally uncalled for.

Men acting like 3 year olds is not something worth discussing on a public forum.

And one more time how do you what I heard is a lie since I have not mentioned what I heard?

51

Hunt 1 - I have never met Francis, or for Planetwc sake, Wally or Lawrence.

“Therefore, red5 has no foundation upon which to make a comparison between himself, Carl, Ben, Ken and Francis.”

Hmmmmm, not sure what the point of this comment is but its inaccurate and an incorrect assumption. I would appreciate it if you did not make specific judgements on who I am or what I have or have not done. I have tried to do the same here although there was one slip, and I apologized for it.

I think its funny that while most of you propose some sort of wingchun peace, some sort of family reckoning, that we all be nice, behave and be friendly, many are so quick to jump to conclusions, make assumptions and then voice them without clarifying the facts.
The point of this thread was to let you know you have a chance to come to a seminar in the midwest, which are generally few and far between, and to experience something some of you may not have before. Instead many of you have fallen on old patterns, some of you are doing what I was recently accused of doing on a thread and berated for. Many of you while pointing the finger are guilty of exactly the same things you are hammering on about. Do any of you find that a little odd? While my opinions may be strong, I am confident in my beliefs, you do not see me making accusations, and assumptions that I am not willing to back up or prove to you. If you have absolutely any questions about where I have been, what I have done, who I have met, how much I know, please feel free to email me personally, or stop by my house if it is convenient with you. I already am talking to no less then three people on this forum about getting together soon to touch hands, talk a little and exchange ideas. At the moment all of my time energy and money is being put into training but in the future I will be more then happy to do a little travelling a few times a year to meet with anyone who wants to get together for a day or even two to touch hands, spar, talk, or whatever they feel is necessary to get to know me.
What I see here are a few people using the safety of the internet to pretend to be a lot of what they are not. I have always put all my cards on the table, and I always will. Try not to make it a habit to assume with me because in the past it has almost always been wrong.
As for the seminar, feel free to come in and check it out.

52

Re: Chris a little paranoid?

Hunt 1,

Paranoid…no I don’t think so. That is interesting about John’s people–they told me they didn’t see the whole thing. The “judge” you refer to wasn’t even near us when it took place. Nobody was in earshot except the two of us that were involved. Sucker punching someone when you are a Referee at a tourney is embarrassing…that is why he and his whole group left early and haven’t been back since.

Everyone who has ever told me what they heard about this incident has always had the facts wrong.

“Men acting like three year olds”, I was attacked without warning so perhaps you might want to change the plural here. People are saying I attacked first after insulting his sigung…absolute fabrication–on both accounts. Don’t bring it up if you want to close your ears. Plenty of people have told me what they heard I said and did, always they have it wrong.

Dude admitted to striking first…or didn’t you hear that part. He approached me…not the other way around. I have yet to hear the truth being told by anyone relating the story to me.

Chris Snyder

PS. How do I know your facts are tainted…just a guess because I have yet hear the truth repeated back to me. I spoke with some of John’s students who were about 20 feet away…they didn’t see it start so how could they accurately tell you what happened from start to finish?

Originally posted by hunt1
[B]Since I made no mention what so ever of what I heard how would you possibly know if what I was told was true or not?

I was told about it by several of Johns people,many WC people and a judge who all saw it first hand. I am sure you have your perception of events just like those not directly involved had theirs.No matter what version the result was embarrassing for WC and totally uncalled for.

Men acting like 3 year olds is not something worth discussing on a public forum.

And one more time how do you what I heard is a lie since I have not mentioned what I heard? [/B]

53

hey chriss

When you got popped, did the guy have a good root!!! Was the crowd “rooting” for him or were they “rooting” for you? What “root” did the guy take when he split? Maybe insulting someones sigung is the true “ROOT” of all evil!!! Did the sucker punch upROOT you? One lie I heard was that you called the guys sigung a fROOT loop!!!:smiley:

54

I gather that it was not wing chun’s finest hour- as judging goes?

55

Rooting isnt always fun? Except in aussie land?

56

Chriss thanks for the laugh

You have no idea what I heard you dont know who I heard it from yet you have the need to defend yourself?Yes I would say paraniod or guilty of poor behavior.Only one judge at the tourny?You talked to all of Johns students and assistants?ROFLMAO

Your story is you were just minding your own business and someone threw a punch at you for no reason at all?Is that your story?So you didnt lose a chi sau match and got all ****y?
Sorry dude I stick with men acting like 3 year olds.

57

yuanfen I dont think it was a judging problem in so far as the judges were very impartial and didnt give a rats behind about which WC guy won a match.

The issue was Phil Nearing was looking for an impartial way to have the competion judged.In previous competions the same judges always judged and some felt they were biased. Phil had run the WC event at the tourny since they started including WC and had gotten several complaints in past years. Some people were not happy with the use of the san sau judges.Funny how the people that did well had no complaints. Bottem line is you can never please everyone and chi sao should not be the basis for competion.

Oh yeah and if your WC is good it doesnt matter what the rules are.

58

Hunt1. Thanks for the memoery jogger.

59

Didn’t Compete

Hey Hunt 1,

At the time of the incident I had only been in WC for about 3 1/2 months. I was recovering from major reconstructive elbow surgery (I had a 108 stitches in my arm and could only lift 4lbs). I was at the tourney as a spectator only. I didn’t even know Pak Sau at the time and didn’t begin Chi Sau for another year…so much for what you think happened. Phil Nearing approached me, not the other way around. People are saying I referred to his sigung in a most unflattering way…I didn’t even know who his sigung was until he told me (being a 3 month student in WC). The name meant nothing to me as I didn’t even know what his sigung looked like (hadn’t even seen a picture at that time).

How Nearing chose to have the event judged wasn’t my concern because it was the first WC tourney event I had ever seen. As I said before, I didn’t even know Chi Sau at the time and was a spectator only (didn’t even wear a school shirt). So much for what you think was the cause for the incident.

I did talk to John’s two students (assistants both) who were closest to the scene and they didn’t see it start. John personally asked all of his students to come forth if they witnessed the entire event from start to finish…not one person said they saw it from start to finish. This comes straight from John–ask him if you doubt it. I didn’t compete so how could I have gotten ****y from losing a match? I was minding my own business until Nearing approached me and engaged me in conversation. He started the curse words first…not me. He swung first (he admitted it to the campus security guards in front of John for I was standing next to John when he said it). So much for what you think you know!

If you don’t want to hear about it don’t bring it up and certainly don’t state reasons for the incident if you weren’t even there.

Chris Snyder

60

Chriss I stand corrected.why you were singled out when it was some one from the competion that was causing the problems was an honest mistake I am sure.As I said in my first post all I know about Carl is hearsay and hence something I dont put much weight too.As far as what happened I never heard your name until these posts.Never heard any names mentioned other than Carl and Phil.It sounds like what ever the cause you got the tail end,must have been a shock.What I heard was that one of Carls students in the event got upset with the judging and the complaining began.It got very heated and someone snappeed. Sorry for the slight.