A Challenge....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I have a challenge for anyone who is able to come to minneapolis June 29th and 30th. We are having a seminar with Carl Dechiara that weekend. Some of you have accused me of spamming because I mention him and his skill periodically but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
You come up, check it out, see what he has to offer. I guarentee you will be suitably impressed if you have an open mind. You can stay at my place, I have plenty of space, I can get you there and back both days, all you have to do is show and participate.
Right now your confident the wing chun you are learning is the good stuff right? I was too and I wouldnt be here right now if I didnt know in my gut that this is the real deal. I hear a lot of people who say they have touched hands with someone who has convinced them they know what it is all about, I am saying here is your chance.
We are always arguing what makes good wing chun on this forum. I see a lot of guys talking a big game but they dont seem williing to explore it a little and challenge what they know.
For those of you who are just starting out, here is the chance to learn what direction you could and should be heading in.
For those of you who have learned enough, long enough to feel you can judge someone and thier skill by touching thier hands, here is your chance. Check out the post about the minneapolis seminar, and email michael or pm me for any details or questions you have.

I am not interested in getting into an argument about what is better, what is spamming, what is right or wrong. I am saying if you want to find out, then here is your chance. Check your ego at the door and you will learn something!

2

Admiration is commendable

Hi Redangel,

While I can appreciate your apparently unwavering support of your Sifu I must say that using words like “challenge” can cause problems. After reading your post I think that I understand that you are not looking for any type of fight but are kind of telling others that you have found the “true deal” and are inviting them to experience it as well. But why not make this an “invitation” rather than a “challenge?”

While your zeal is commendable, there is the underlying tone of “my way is the best way” which can be misconstrued and perhaps cause problems. Knowing how fragile some egos are, and how violate others tempers can be I think I would opt to tone it down just a bit. While you have found a method and approach which suits you and is among the better ones available, by several different accounts, let us not forget that each method and approach has validity.

Also, since you have opted to invite others to attend and even to stay at your house I was wondering if you would foot the bill ;). I know that I might take a trip out to visit and learn if the cost were being picked up by someone else. :smiley: I am always looking for the free things in life :wink:

Seriously, your ardour is commendable but the tone is a bit rough. Be careful as I am sure this event is one which will not be served if others arrive with intentions other than learning and exchanging. Much like another seminar with another “challenge” several years ago :rolleyes: It does neither yourself nor your Sifu any good to issue any type of challenge and only opens the door to something unpleasant regardless of the outcome. Besides, as history has shown, no matter the outcome most people will go their way unchanged anyhow :frowning:

Peace,

Dave

3

Just curious . . .

Carl has studied for a long time and attained good skill in Wing Chun under Kenneth Chung. What then motivated him to become an “indoor disciple” (his words) of Chen Qingzhou in Chen style taijiquan? And practice the Lao Jia Yi Lu form of Chen taijiquan 7-10 times a day (again, his words)–something that would take at least 4 hours of continuous practice each day.

Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl’s Wing Chun? I’m just curious, because I’ve seen some different threads on combining Wing Chun training with another art, very often taijiquan.

Seems to me like the relaxation and rooting aspects of Chen taijiquan would work well with Kenneth Chung’s “soft touch” approach in Wing Chun.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

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possibly an invitation?

Dave, I sometimes come off a bit rough, being in the marines and growing up in my family will do that to you! "Invitation’ would probably be more approachable and it may seem more friendly but I think challenge is apropriate here. “Allow me to retort…”

I have seen a lot of talk on this forum, and several others about what is good, what is bad, what is correct and what is not. Some people choose to take the middle road, its all good for someone, and while that may be true, there is some of it out there that isnt really good for anyone. If it comes off as my way is the best way, well fist of all its not really my way, its Carl Dechiaras and Kenneth Chungs way and I think it is the right way. So much so that I would invite anyone to come, take a look at it experience it, even practice it a little and see what I am talking about.
Of course I am not looking for a fight or to set up a fight :slight_smile: I am sincerely interested in getting people to come try it out. All thing sbeing equal if you can afford to make the trip and are into wing chun, it will, I believ, be worth your while.
I did however mention that I wasnt interested in fighting with anyone or arguing finer points, this was an invitation to experience it.
Why do I believe in what I am learning? Several reasons, the first, I saw it in action against someone who just about anyone would recognize has some real skill, and it destroyed them. This person couldnt compete at all with it. He had no real root, no real sensitivty, although if you were to ask him or talk to him about it, or look at him you would have assumed it to be true. But you would be wrong. The second reason, because Carl Dechiara seems willing to take the pepsi challenge if you know what I mean? I cannot speak for him and I am not saying he would want to duke it out with anyone and everyone who came along, but I think he would be willing to show you that what he has is the real thing. I see the sincerety in him and his desire to develope his skill and the skill of his students. he believes in what he does and I also believe that he would admit if something better came along. I just dont think there is, my opinion of course.
LOL! on that free thing, sometimes you have to pay your dues to get something! I had considered offering to pay for someone if they felt that what they had was better and could prove it at the seminar, but a.) that sounds too much like a challeneg and I want to keep it friendly! and b.) who knows who you can trust now a days to be honest! Dave, you seem like an honest guy and if you can get yourself out here I would take you up on that challenge.

Regardless of how I came off, this is a friendly invitation adn I definitly think it would be worth anyones time to come out.

5

Wujidude, while I cant speak for Carl, I can say that we do some Taichi excersise atht help us to develop our root and relaxation. Carl has integrated them into our warm up excersises to help us develop these a little faster.
I know he trainis at Chen Village atleast once a year and takes it very seriously but as fo rhis motivation and such, you will just have to email him on it.

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What’s the big deal? I mean, Red5 has already challenged all of our mothers, on the main board. (Sorry Red!) :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

-FJ

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LOL! at fa-jing!:smiley:

8

Mid Road or Mid Life Crisis

Hi Red,

Again, I understand where you are coming from and I can appreciate your zeal. While I doubt I can make it out for this event, first of all I just resumed working again, second I am still far from 100% so it would hardly be fair for me to “show off” :smiley: , third a little short on notice, I will be visiting with some of Kens students near the end of this month. I am sure that it will be a gratifying experience. Also, my Sifu has always had good things to say about Ken. Actually if you look at it we are all of the Leung Shun lineage, although my approach is likely to be a bit radical and different in comparison.

I wish you luck with this event and I would like to extend an “Invitation” for you, and anyone else interested, to visit me in Philly or attend the next Gathering in NYC in July. I promise a time of fellowship with no hidden agenda. Of course I will be using subliminal techniques to bring you all to my way, which of course is the One True Way :stuck_out_tongue: LOL!!!

Take care and train well.

Peace,

Dave

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No problem Dave, good luck with the Kenneth Chung guys! I would love to go to NYC this year but I have dedicated myself to training for a few years which means I wont be doing many on the side trips, but you guys keep it up and I will be out there to show you what its all about in a few years :wink:

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Are all welcome

I believe you should be able to trian and learn from all people, some more than others,
But hypothetically - if someone came along whose wing chun was better than Carl’s, what would happen, what would you and Carl do?

This is not a personal challenge - just a hypothetical!

PS: What is the cost of the seminar?

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All of you can come see our school anytime.

No, you can’t stay at my place, I won’t pick up and deliver, and you can pay your own **** way.

www.combatcentres.com

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Wujidude - I talked to Carl and this is what he said about the taichi and wingchun:
He wants it clarified that Ken Chung is still his Sifu, so he is not Master Chens indoor disciple. He was introduced to Master Chen by Ken Chung. He does Yi Lu everyday, sounds like he does it for a little less then 2 hours and tries to workout total for 4 a day, the rest of the time it sounds like he does wingchun. I was incorrect in saying he went every year, he would like to but he does not.
Basically he told me it has made him more substantial in terms of his root, his sensitivty and his body structure. The man likes Tai Chi and He feels it helps him enough to make it worth practicing side by side with hiw wing chun.
For me, the small amount I do for warm ups has helped me out immensely!

Fantom - We can probably learn something from everyone, but for some those things we learn are how not to do something, or what is the wrong way :wink: As for the better person, Well Carl has said that if someone better came along he would be willing to learn what it is they have brought to the table. He deals a lot with people who have thrown out thier training to learn with him, empty thier cups to start over and learn it the right way, so he understands this. Its another reason why I know its the good stuff, almost everyone I know that trains under him has given up years of training in other wingchun, or other martial arts to learn his and Kens way. no problem on the ‘personal challenge’! I dont mind being challenged at all, its why I am learning from Carl! :wink: I will PM you with the details

Anerlich, in a few years I may visit the great continent of Australia, if so I will definitely stop by!

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Thanks, Redangel. It seems like good taijiquan would offer benefits in rooting and relaxation which could transfer over to wing chun practice. Good luck with the seminar.

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Thanks Wujidude, I think that is the idea! I will definitely enjoy the seminar!

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Tai Chi

FWIW - My sifu teaches/studies Tai Chi as well as WC. I don’t recall who taught it to him at the moment. He also teaches 7*Praying Mantis under Sifu Lai. But, I’ve never asked him in what order he learned these systems or why he stayed with these particular 3.

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red5angel,

“Right now your confident the wing chun you are learning is the good stuff right? I was too and I wouldnt be here right now if I didnt know in my gut that this is the real deal.”

Real Deal Indeed, maybe to you, but that’s OK. Don’t tell people that what their doing is not the real deal or it’s true Yip Man Wing Chun you will not make too many friends. This is why we have in Wing Chun so many problems. Let people find out for themselves if the Wing Chun there doing sucks (from experience).

“I am not interested in getting into an argument about what is better, what is spamming, what is right or wrong. I am saying if you want to find out, then here is your chance. Check your ego at the door and you will learn something!”

Then why would you put up this challenge. It is you who should check your ego at the door and learn something. There are many Wing Chun schools out their. Do you have any experience in the different lineages? If so great. If not how do you know what is going on there? Did you read some book or seen some video or did you just hear about them from someone. I believe most of them have something to offer. If it fits you as a person then check it out, if not move on. For what it’s worth my Sifu studied with Bradford Louie back in the early 80’s (a student of Kenneth Chung) and left because he felt it was not practical enough. Does this make that lineage bad, no just different. I think you should get out more often, or keep your opinions to yourself. It’s because of stuff like this I believe Wing Chun lineages cannot get along. Hey, I could say all kinds of great stuff about my Sifu, but I don’t, you would have to find out for yourself. I usually don’t answer posts like this, but you touched a nerve.

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John - The exact purpose of this “challenge” is to invite you to see what you think. You dont have to agree with me. If you come and you see and experience and you still feel like you got it, so be it. But I can guarentee you will walk away with new insights. As for the real deal, I am not worry about what real Yip Man wingchun is. Too many out there claiming that title. I do know that what Carl teaches is good, real good.
I have had experience with other lineages. I have seen Carls pitted against another I thought was very good. It couldnt stand up.

"I think you should get out more often, or keep your opinions to yourself. "

What I dont get is why do people use this statement when they are offended? Especially on an internet forum where we are here to share opinions? You dont have to like what I say or type, you dont even have to read it really. If you do, I dont mind discussing it with you.
As for seeing for yourself? That was the point of this thread, inviting you to see for yourself. I am inviting people to come and see what we are all about, what Carl has to offer and determine for yourself if it is for you or not. Carl is tough and he is an exacting teacher. He makes us work, hard. Just when you think you are doing it well, he shows you how to do it better. he strives for perfection, and although it is unattainable there is nothing wrong with reaching for your full potential. I put this out to give you a chance to see it for yourself.
I will be the first to admit what he has to offer isnt for everyone. A lot of wingchun out there is lazy, like mcdojo karate, its not hard to do, and you dont really have to work at it. Alot of people lack precision and root. Everyone says they have it but very few really do. I said this on another thread and I will say it here. You cant say it in a nice soft way that some people just suck. Its just not possible. As far as I am concerned everyone should always be looking for better ways to increase thier skill. If you are backyard practitioner, dutifully going to classes and practicing at home periodically then maybe what Carl has to offer isnt for you, but you wont know until you try.
I for one was one of those people until I met him and saw his stuff. Just showing up for class, practicing at home maybe 30 minutes or an hour a day. Then I saw what it COULD be and I got excited. I realized I could push myself to my full potential. This stuff is the way to do it.
Regardless, whether we agree or not, no reason to try to be offensive. I am not, believe it or not. I think if you want to check it out you should, come prove me wrong if you want. I say come to see what it is about thats all. you get to walk away making a decision for yourself so what can it hurt really?

18

r5a - I was lucky enough to visit Ken Chung and spend time in his class. Do I still need to visit Dechiara sifu to become enlightened? Should the direct students of Chung sifu drop him and switch over to your sifu? Or are they okay where they are? What about Leung Sheung’s other students in HK? What about Chung sifu?

And are you sure you’re enlightened? Have you gone to visit all the other sifu out there? Have you “touched hands” with Tsui Sheung-Tin, or have you gone in search of Fung Chun, Sum Nung, Way Yan, the Cho, etc.? What if you find a better one next month, will you be back here insisting we all drop everything and go visit him? And what if you meet an even better one the month after that? How do you know which mountain is the highest, if you’re near the bottom still and can’t see above the clouds?

And what does “touching hands” matter when there’s one teacher and a million students? Or do you mean this to be an “open challenge” where top notch WCK people from around the world come for a chance to defeat your sifu? If the former, its a fraud. Most teachers, regardless of lineage, can “touch hands” and come off well if not miraculous against most students. Heck, Rick Spain (William Cheung) and Emin Boztepe (Leung Ting) could kick my butt, and likely yours, in a milisecond, yet are both very different in approach. If both kicked our butts, who should we then follow? I’ve had the good fortune of meeting several really good WCK sifu (people who have spent almost, if not more than, 50 years honing their art), all different from each other, all the same, all so far beyond me I couldn’t begin to imagine. And if the latter, there are some truly spectacular WCK fighters out there, and you should really talk to your sifu before posting a “challenge” on the internet.

The above might come off strange to you. It certainly does to me. I would hazard, however, that its not anyone else that needs check their egocentrism (ego is healthy and everyone should have it, egocentrism, or hubres, not so much ;).

Personally, I’m glad you found something you like and someone you think you can learn from. Those are truly the only things important. As part of a lineage, however, your words have affect beyond you. You put your sifu, Chung sifu, and all the other members of your family (I think I heard some cringe already) on the hot seat when you post the way you do, and that’s not fair to them. You’re using their names, and yours is the only one you should ethically be using.

I enjoy your posts immensely and think you’re a good guy, which is why I’m responding like this. Please do take the time to think and understand this. Its a very important part of martial culture.

Rgds,

RR

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RR - No problem in what you are saying, it makes much sense. I am also believe it or not, aware of how it affects my “family” and have always said I do not speak for anyone but myself, if that isnt clear to anyone reading this thread I apologize, there should be no doubt now.
The bottom of the mountain? Most of us are, even those wh ohave been doing it for gobs of time, and those who have touched many hands.
There are thousands of people I havent touched hands with, and if someone comes along and convinces me thier stuff is better hey, I am all for following what is better. you could view that as mercenary if you want, I dont, its common sense.
You did however miss the point of the “challenge”. Its not a come fight someone to see who is better challenge. I could only speak for myself on this. the “challenge” is to come and see what is being offered at the seminar.Chung Sifu is obviously Carls Superior, that is why Carl is learning from him, but Chung Sifu is not coming to Minneapolis, Carl is.
On the subject of Emin Boztepe, he is a prime example of what is bad with wing chun. What he does is a watered down *******ization, an “improvement” he calls it over the stuff that is already offered. Emin himself might be able to kick my butt in no time flat but I would never call what he does wingchun. And that is partially the point, good fighting is only a part of the mix that makes good wingchun, but it is ultimately the goal.
As for Hubris, well, al I said was check your ego at the door, as I do, everytime I enter my classroom. As I would if I entered someone elses school. I only expect the same of others. Some do, some dont.
I understand waht you are saying Renee, atleast I believe I do, and I think part of the problem may be in the understanding of my “challenge”. It wasnt a challenge to fight. I could never do that for someone else only myself.
I am speaking from a place where I believe what I am practicing is the right stuff. I would love for everyone else to be a part of it, but I can also say it may not be for everyone.
Anyway, look at it this way if it makes you feel better, I would assume you are practicing what you feel is the best you can find? Me too, al I am offering is a chance to come and see it. then you walk away making your own decisions.

Well, I may come off as a little coarse sometimes. Its not meant to be that way, I am however confident in what I am teaching as I assume most of you are? I hope to in the future travel a bit and get to touch hands with many of you who are willing and able, I look forward to it. At the very least you make friends, right?

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red5

Would you consider Ben Ders son Francis a good example of the WC you study?