Will the real wing chun please stand?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Ok, I am totally amazed how different the teachings of what is defined as a particular art, expressed by someone who is generally recognized as having the ability to display its essential features, for example yip man are interpreted by several different groups.

They bear no obvious relation in terms being able to identify their origin as being the same. The gross physical movements are very dissimilar. I would think that they should all be recognizable as belonging to the same founding principles. At what point does a slight variation become an entirely new animal?

Is there an evolutionary process inherent in martial arts (or humanity in general) that must eventually alter something so that the very core changes? Not usually, I would think. Usually, the changes that occur are increasing smaller as they become refinements.

I can’t imagine how this could happen with quality results in a short time, such as the time since yip man. Usually new ideas must bear long challenge with overwhelming results deciding that that is the direction in which it must go.

So really, what explains an art that is no longer recognizable as such?

Is it a product of bad teacher or bad student, or is it possible that there is a real revolution in terms of the expression of principles?

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Reply to kungfu cowboy in brackets:

Ok, I am totally amazed how different the teachings of what is defined as a particular art, expressed by someone who is generally recognized as having the ability to display its essential features, for example yip man are interpreted by several different groups.

(Why are you amazed? I am not!!))

I would think that they should all be recognizable as belonging to the same founding principles.
((You mean imitations should look the same?))

At what point does a slight variation become an entirely new animal?

((When one hasa clear standard in order to understand the variations.Unfortunaytelya standard can easily be seen by some as dogma))

Is there an evolutionary process inherent in martial arts (or humanity in general) that must eventually alter something so that the very core changes?

((Happens all the time— well known in animal breeding))

Not usually, I would think. Usually, the changes that occur are increasing smaller as they become refinements.

((If the core standard is understood in the first place))

I can’t imagine how this could happen with quality results in a short time, such as the time since yip man.

((Why cant you imagine? YM’s wing chun was the genuine thing.
People who spent little quality time with him- began to make up their own things- while piggybacking on the name. Cohibas and imitation cigars and puros))

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Yuanfen, I guess what I am saying more plainly is that I don’t think a lot of wing chun being touted as such is actually wing chun, and it amazes me that what is a minimalist art that contained none of these features can run the range from looking like kickboxing to wushu.

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kungfu cowboy

where have some of the wing chunners gone
gone to jkdo everyone
when will they ever learn
Oh when will they ever learn

Where have all the jeet folks gone
gone to brazil everyone
when will they ever learn
oh when will they ever learn

where have all jutsu folks gone
gone to the ground
everyone
when will they ever learn
oh when will they ever learn

5

LOL!!:smiley:

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KFCowboy - Flashy sells, eveyrone wants to look good, or look like those crazy flying kungfu guys from the HK films. no one wants to stand in a crazy looking, uncomfortable stance for hours, much less 20 minutes ot get something hard to define in english such as ‘root’.
Other people want a good workout, for the body, wingchun works out the mind more then the body!
Still others are concerned with self defense, which you can obviously get by taking a 2 week class :rolleyes: in the age of guns and gangs…

The problem is too many people are lazy and dont want to work for it. Wing Chun is a minimalist art but in the beginning you must work hard to get to that ‘little or nothing’.

7

It is all real

All WC shares common motions,tan,bong,fook etc and basic concepts.The problem is that very few through the years have learned how to use it.

Using Yip Man as an example.He told his students dont believe him try it out and see if it works.Yip Man did not spoon feed.it is doubtfull those before him did either.Yip Man felt you had to be educated and intelligent to really learn WC.WC was designed for fighting period.

Now just read this forum and you see how most teach WC today and have taught it for the last 40 years or so.

Today students believe their Sifu has all the answers.If I dont do it your way I must be wrong.How many people have tried to learn how to make WC work?How many Sifu’s.They take short cuts,add some thai kicks for instance instead of learning to apply WC kicks and footwork.(Example round kick,if you know WC footwork then you know WC has a round kick).

Today everyone wants to be spoonfed.Sifu! Sifu! tell me how to defend against (x).

Today evryone talks in buzz words(root etc).How many learn how to link and unlink,root and unroot,sink and rise etc..Very very few learn these things or how to make them work.They get dazzled by the art,wow Sifu’s inch punch is amazing or wow Sifu roots on one leg and you cant move him.The question is how many can actually do these things in the few seconds you have in a real fight.

Many of Yip Mans students didnt learn the whole system so they filled in or just skipped things.Some tried to learn how it works and some didnt.Others learned a great deal but dont want to share it.Some concentrated on fighting thus students may have lost some of the art.Others did the opposite thus losing fighting effectiveness.

All these things have led to todays WC.The good part is that if you keep an open mind you can learn real WC.You just have to put the parts together.

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Hunt 1 sez:

Many of Yip Mans students didnt learn the whole system so they filled in or just skipped things.Some tried to learn how it works and some didnt.Others learned a great deal but dont want to share it.Some concentrated on fighting thus students may have lost some of the art.Others did the opposite thus losing fighting effectiveness.
All these things have led to todays WC.The good part is that if you keep an open mind you can learn real WC.You just have to put the parts together.

Good post! Still surprises me when folks here and the vtaa rag
list criticize others because they think that Yip Man taught a single rigid version of working on the mok jong. What a good sifu sez is important but proclaiming the virtues of sifu is not enough for learning the motions well and the spontaneous applications
of motions without imitation and without painting by numbers
on the canvass at hand.

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very very funny yuanfen( YOUR SONG)…

Any way to me it is pretty simple. Let’s go to the root or source of the problem.

The problem is WC is a very flexible art. It will be interpreted as such. Ip Man taught it that way. So then when Grandmaster Yip dies everyone claims to have the "real " WC when all they have is their own interpretations.

I am not saying these variations are bad or cannot work. It is just the artist’s interpretation.

Too many people cannot understand there is more then one way to skin a cat. Too many people cannot really understand with in the principles of WC there are more then one way to to achieve your goal which is to win the fight.

These kind of who does the real thing or who does it best is evident in many styles as well.

See people will claim 'their way ’ is superior for $$$$$$$$$$$$$

They prey on those who are robots to be lead. ( no pun intended)

With in a style or way that allows as much freedom in WC there will always be these type of issues like which one is the “real one”

In the Junfan JKD communities this is the norm as well.

I debated this many years. Now to me it is no longer important as the shift of my training and efforts have gone to the individual artist or me.

It is not about the style ultimately.in is about the individual.

Let’s look at something else. We all know Ip man learned one style of WC . Then learned another after he lost a fight.

What did he do next? He went and challenged all the other grand masters of Wc to claim it.

To have the conformity people want something similar would need to be done.

I am not saying to do this …but understand there will always be these issues if all the different ideas and theory’s are not realistically tested.

I myself can live with all the different variations. For some its more of an issue

RF-

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Rafael said - "It is not about the style ultimately.it is about the individual. "

This sounds too much like the ‘open-mindedness’ of JKD. Dont mistake that before you begin to make an art your own you have to understand it to a high degree. Most people dont reach this although planety claim to, or just skip it and go for adding other things into the mix.
Is the best way to build a house just to go out, get some wood, a hammer and some nails and start building? Or is it to study achitecture, work a little in the business with someone who knows what is going on, and then going out and doing it on your own?

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you may be assuming much…

I decided to edit this as to not be so confrentational as this does no good over a computer :slight_smile:

You do not really know me or what I have trained in. How do you make your assumtions ? By being openmided? Chances are the openminded artist has been really tested or has really used his Gung fu and has not just learned untested theory in a classroom.
:slight_smile:

If you have not trained in in JKD how can you even comment on it?

I have trained both styles for sometime now .

I think my WC skill is up there with anyone my age.

By the way I take me being openmidness as a compliment.

Now you my friend seem a bit in the "closeminded "

A closeminded artist is one that may run into problems in the “real thing”:slight_smile:

Many WC people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them.

It is a crime to not think for yourself.

I do agree one must have a proficancy and working understanding of the art before they can freelance.

We are in agreement there .

RF-

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LAST THING …

My friend please think before you write next time …please do not assume things.

2years is good time and I commend you for it. But it is not enough time to spend in any art to comment about anything.

Think hard next time grasshopper :slight_smile:

RF

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Rafael- I have as of late been trying to keep things friendly around here but your condescension does not appeal to me. Before you ask me to ‘think’ before I write I suggest you do the same, here is why…

2 years in anything is enough time to get a feel for something. 10 years in something doesnt make you an expert, especially if you are doing it wrong.

I have not trained in JKD because there is no such thing. By its own tenets it does not exist. I tmight be cute to think that studying a buffet style martial art is the way to go, but it doesnt work if you have no foundation.

I would take openmindedness as a compliment too but in this case I used it in quotes. The ‘openmindedness’ of JKD is a joke. To study a style that isnt supposed to be a style? How does that work? Why dont you just weight lift and have someone hit you several hundred times a day? Then at some point you will be so strong and so tough you wont have to worry about it. Contrary to popular JKD belief, most systems have been tried and tested over a few dozen decades or a few hundred years. How long has JKD been around again?

“Many WC people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them”

How about.. “Many KungFu people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them”

Or.. “Many Martial Arts people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them”

Or even…“Many JKD people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them”

If you will go back and reread my statements you will find I make no assumptions but the ones I have to make in order to have a conversation with you. If you find that anything I say has offended you then you need to ask yourself why. I recommend you do not make a habit of following the path of the internet azzhole and try to think for yourself, dont make assumptions, try to converse with people on an even keel, try not ot make assumptions, dont condescend to someone you think you know more then, and dont make assumptions. Did I mention not to make assumptions?

My name is not grasshopper, you are more then welcome to call me by my Screen name or by my real name, Jason. Sounding like a kungfu monk does not make you one.
If you have nothing of you want to reply and instead of having a civil and normal discussion, want to flame, fight and argue about things you cant prove on the internet be my guest, but dont expect me to continue to participate. If you want to talk about it like a human being who can think for himself and isnt afraid to have his beliefs challenged then I am always up for a nice conversation or even a friendly debate.

14

seems your being the internet azzhole here:)

YOU WROTE:
<Rafael- I have as of late been trying to keep things friendly around here but your condescension does not appeal to me. Before you ask me to ‘think’ before I write I suggest you do the same, here is why…

2 years in anything is enough time to get a feel for something. 10 years in something doesn’t make you an expert, especially if you are doing it wrong.>

Who said 10 years? Try more like 20. Okay lecture me with 2 years of experience: )

<I have not trained in JKD because there is no such thing. By its own tenets it does not exist. I tmight be cute to think that studying a buffet style martial art is the way to go, but it doesnt work if you have no foundation.>

You could not be more wrong then that. You need to do some research please! It is obvious you have no idea what you’re writing about! Jun fan Gung fu is the core or JKD
Jun fan gung fu is very steeped in WC. I would dare to say it is a modified harder approach to WC. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

<I would take openmindedness as a compliment too but in this case I used it in quotes. The ‘openmindedness’ of JKD is a joke. To study a style that isnt supposed to be a style? How does that work? Why dont you just weight lift and have someone hit you several hundred times a day? Then at some point you will be so strong and so tough you wont have to worry about it. Contrary to popular JKD belief, most systems have been tried and tested over a few dozen decades or a few hundred years. How long has JKD been around again? >

You have no idea what you write. Maybe go to a school to find out how it works? And you forget I can tell you a thing or 2 about WC as well. Are you an instructor in WC? I don’t think 2 years would be enough time do you? So I am not just some JKD guy. My base art actually is WC!

<If you will go back and reread my statements you will find I make no assumptions but the ones I have to make in order to have a conversation with you. If you find that anything I say has offended you then you need to ask yourself why. I recommend you do not make a habit of following the path of the internet azzhole and try to think for yourself, dont make assumptions, try to converse with people on an even keel, try not ot make assumptions, dont condescend to someone you think you know more then, and dont make assumptions. Did I mention not to make assumptions? >

Fine, you do the same okay? :slight_smile:

<My name is not grasshopper, you are more then welcome to call me by my Screen name or by my real name, Jason. Sounding like a kungfu monk does not make you one.
If you have nothing of you want to reply and instead of having a civil and normal discussion, want to flame, fight and argue about things you cant prove on the internet be my guest, but dont expect me to continue to participate. If you want to talk about it like a human being who can think for himself and isnt afraid to have his beliefs challenged then I am always up for a nice conversation or even a friendly debate.>

Sure but but the same goes for you okay ?

RF-

15

<2 years in anything is enough time to get a feel for something. 10 years in something doesnt make you an expert, especially if you are doing it wrong.
>

Can you tell me what I am doing wrong then? You tell me the correct way to practice then. I would like to know this.

Have you learned all the forms in WC yet ? I think all people learn at diffrent pace’s but that sounds like 2 short a time to learn everything there is to WC don’t you think ? \

By the look of your writing son seems you feeled you mastered it all already.

I by all means I have not learned everything yet. But I have put in my hard earned trained years. I am proud to say I think it shows.

Also I do not mean this as a challenge so don’t take this way . But if you are ever in southen california feel free to drop by .

Hey mabey you can show me what I am doing wrong. :slight_smile:

RF-

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I never professed to show you what you are doing wrong, but check out my Challenge thread if you are interested. If you can make it up to San Francisco, stop by Kenneth Chungs school, or Ben Durs. They are the best in the business.

I agree, 2 years is a short time, and I probably have a ways more to travel then you but let me put this in perspective. have you ever met an old person who is a fool, or couldnt stay out of trouble, or was just plain dumb as a rock? Well, by the logic that time makes skill, there shouldnt be any. All old people should be really intelligent, smart enough to not make mistakes, or atleast not nearly as many as younger people. Age does not make perfection. People who age do no always get it.
The same goes for wingchun, just because someone has been in for so many years doesnt mean they are doing it well or right. I know that a lot of people have given up the time they have put in to empty thier cup and start over with Ken Chung and Carl Dechiara.
A lot of people out there are fooling themselves. There is no way to say that without offending people but it is the truth.

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your right …

And I do agree 100% !

You make good points.

Good training

RF-

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You too Rafael, thanks for meeting me half way on the rational discussion thing! :wink: I will remember that invitation to come to southern california, and you are always welcome to stop by if you find yourself in minnesota, although hopefully it isnt in the winter!

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A jazz teacher once said this to me,“Imitation,Assimilation…Innovation”
I see alot of improvisation in WC, especially Chi sao. Perhaps it applies here in the martial world also?

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‘A lot of people out there are fooling themselves. There is no way to say that without offending people but it is the truth.’
honestly red, do you really feel you have travelled enough & seen enough quality wing chun to say that.
i feel it is great to see such admiration for your teachers and i would be the first to tell you how good i feel my sifu is, however would you give it a rest. i sometimes wonder how much difficulty they have walking with you so far up their behinds.
vts