‘If you can make it up to San Francisco, stop by Kenneth Chungs school, or Ben Durs. They are the best in the business.’
‘The same goes for wingchun, just because someone has been in for so many years doesnt mean they are doing it well or right.’
sorry, but can you give a reason that with your 2 years of knowledge what makes you think that any of these people have it right?
vts
Shadowboxer - thats interesting and I think it does apply.
VTS - I guess I have to go through this again. This is a favorite argument from ‘oldtimers’. Since they have been doing it longer they must know how it works. This does not hold water with me though. If you have spent your entire life doing it wrong then you are still doing it wrong and have only become and expert at doing it wrong. I have met plenty of people doing it wrong, and who have been doing it wrong for a long time.
There is a difference between admiration and buttkissing, and I have never been accused of butt kissing 
As for my two years experience, going on three now, It has shown me a lot of wingchun, and travelling the country for a good portion of those two years I got to see a lot of wingchun. All of it? Of course not, but that was my experience. As for Ken and how do I know he has the best stuff? How do you know which mountain is the highest?
Thats great VTS that you think your teacher is the best, I would have said the same thing about my first instructor when I was learning from him. Now I am not learning from him…
red5angels ,
I think you should be commended on your dedication to WC. Some people may learn faster then others. I like your enthusiasm. Never lose it, okay? 
One thing I am not to clear with is when you write people are doing Wc the wrong way, what do you mean? How are they doing it wrong? Are they practicing the wrong forms in your opinion? Is their chi sau incorrect? Their structure not up to par? Wrong Bong sau aliment? Their not sealing their shoulders and turning off certain muscles at certain times?
Or is it in the practicality or how they use WC? Can you explain this?
Just want to get a little more of your perspective.
RF-
no problem Rafael, this is what I see most of -
Loose, floppy arms. Chi sau should have some intention behind it, not just flapping arms.
High shallow stances. While doing SLT, your stance should be deep, this developes a strong root and allows you to absorb your opponents energy much easier. You should have your knees from 2 finger widths to a fist a part.
Relaxed energy is another big one. Many people are still tight with their wingchun, striking with tenseness. Also, and probably one of the most common is the efficiency of wingchun. Wing chun was designed to be efficient, direct. Movements should be minimal, and a good wing chun man should move as little as possible, or a better way to put it is you should only move as much as you have to. Precision is the key. I see alot of sloppiness in some schools. I dont think this is necessarily a lineage thing but more a school to school thing.
For instance, Pak Sau was explained to me in detail a few weeks ago. If you keep your hand close to your chest, it gives you more room for mistakes, more room between you and your opponents attack. If his fist gets through you are still in pak, and the sideways action is going to nullify most of his forward energy. So even if he taps you a little, no big deal. This also means your pak doesnt have to go very far to nullify the attack.
I see…
I think I can agree to some extent on that . I just think a lot of times the problem is with the dedication of the student or teacher.
So its in the mechanics /technique and structure you see the problem ,right?
I tend to agree with that .
Thanks
RF-
"I think I can agree to some extent on that . I just think a lot of times the problem is with the dedication of the student or teacher. "
I absolutely agree with this statement. More often then not it is due to laziness or lack of dedication to the art. Some people dont have time, or atleast dont want to make time. But it seems that often these people who dont make time can turn to teaching at some point.
For example, here in minneapolis, we have a few wingchun schools. Almost all of them are being taught by people who havent learned the entire system much less taken the time to study what they do know. It is also popular here to cover percieved holes in the wingchun system with other arts, or to integrate some of wingchun into a system of MMA. Alo toftimes the motivation seems to be money, or desire to be seen as a figure of authority on a subject or to hear themselves called sifu. It kills the art because these people dont want to have the patience to really learn the system. to really see the beauty in its simplicity and how easy it is once you put the time and effort into it.
well red i noticed you told anerlich that you hope to get to oz within a couple of years, so all this old/young timer will say is that i can’t wait, as it will be good to see how disillussioned i have been for so long.
no need to worry about training facilities either as i have a large shed which i’m sure we will be able to fit your extremely large head in.
i’m sorry for making the mistake of thinking that you only had 2 years experience when it is more close to 3.
do you mind me asking how many times you have tested what you have learnt so far in actual comat?
i am not meaning to be rude but as un-needed as some might believe this a fighting art & i don’t care what anyone says, talk is just talk until you put it on the line & see if it works.
vts
VTS
Forget it pal…Chrissy99 challenged me awhile back so i gave him directions how to get to our club…still waiting!!! (chrissy is also one of carl dechiara’s students) It seems these forum hijackers are trying to be big shot’s from the comfort of their little computer desk’s. Big mouth’s yes…Balls no!!!
p.s. (to carl and his toadeye) Please don’t ask me to drive eight hours to come kick your ass.
p.s.s. carl’s kung fu is just like everybody elses red5, don’t let the little rich boys trips to china fool you into thinking he’s better than everybody else.
Madness!
Does Carl practise Wing Chun in the same way Duncan Leung, Leung Ting, WSL, or TST does/did? Do/did any of these exponents practise Wing Chun in exactly the same way as Yip Man himself?
I don’t think so, so why are we (Red5angel) beating up on other Sifu’s?
Given half a chance I’d train with ANY of the top guys. The last thing on my mind would be telling them they don’t have any root!!
H.e.l.l, I’d train with any STUDENT from any lineage. I like the fact each lineage has something different to offer. And like one of the posters said, using it in actual combat is what it really comes down to.
I’ve seen other WC schools in the UK and not liked what I watched. I wouldn’t want to train with them full time, but good luck to them is what I say. There are those who don’t like what my Sifu has to offer. Live and let live and train with as many people (regardless of lineage/style) as possible.
Re: VTS
Sunkuen,
I challenged you to put your money where your mouth is. You are welcome to come and visit anytime you like. Traveling 8 hours to touch YOUR hands is not a big thing on my to-do list. Should I make it up to Canada anytime in the future I plan to stop by.
>
Originally posted by sunkuen
>[B]Forget it pal…Chrissy99 challenged me awhile back so i gave >him directions how to get to our club…still waiting!!! (chrissy is >also one of carl dechiara’s students) It seems these forum >hijackers are trying to be big shot’s from the comfort of their >little computer desk’s. Big mouth’s yes…Balls no!!!
Actually I believe that “big mouth behind the computer” was my line to you Jack**s. I’ll leave the “big mouth and no balls” to you as you seem to have a monopoly in this department.
>p.s. (to carl and his toadeye) Please don’t ask me to drive eight >hours to come kick your ass.
I am not the todai…not even close to his best student. Furthermore, it has yet to be determined what you have the ability to accomplish with me. Since it seems to be such a thorn in your backside…please come on down.
>p.s.s. carl’s kung fu is just like everybody elses red5, don’t let >the little rich boys trips to china fool you into thinking he’s better >than everybody else. [/B]
To quote a popular movie, “Man you come straight out of a comic book”.
Why not crawl back into your hole now Mr. Troll
black and blue
Great post I agree 100% !
dollar for dollar
Chrissy, the entertainment value you provide is second to none. If I was to come and mop the floor with you, carl, and the rest of your club, youd have to drive all the way to Canada for lessons every week. Thank the good lord VTS doesn’t come and kick your asses, youd all have to move to aussieland!!! R.S.V.P.
VTS - nice, please dont feel you need to lecture me anymore unless you can look at your last post there and see why you have lost all your credibility. I have not stooped to threatening, or name calling and I will not. If I come to Oz I will accept your invitation, I am not concerned about learning or teaching any lessons just touching hands with people who are interested. As for a fighting art, maybe this is the first thread of mine you have read, but I have always said it is a fighting art, Wing Chun is absolutely a fighting art, its not pretty, its not flashy, its efficeint, its effective and it works.
As for talk is cheap, you are correct, as this is a forum it is all we are allowed. I dont have a problem with knowing if it works or does, that is why I have the other thread open to invite people to come see it work.
If you feel like you want to calm down and talk I have no problem with that but I do not study mouth boxing and so do not wish to meet you in that challenge.
BLack and Blue - please go back and read my post, I have not mentioned anyone of the guys at the top. Most of those guys have put some serious work into what they are doing. I am refering to the faceless masses of wc, the people out there who are learning or teaching the art incorrectly. That in my opinion is most of them.
I too would train with anyone given the chance, as in getting together comparing notes, and touching hands or sparring.
Yes… but…
R5A - I hear what you’re saying, but most of the WC in the world is from the major players. William Cheung and Leung Ting having perhaps the largest WC organisations worldwide. Both do things very differently from your Sifu.
Your implication (well, straight out statement) that most people practising WC are doing so incorrectly, is what has got some forum members hot under the collar.
If Carl, for example, where to openly critique the majority of players, this would be interesting. But I don’t believe he’d do so. The crazy “mine-is-bigger-than-yours” statements from the 80s are pretty much dead these days.
If not… lets see some real challenges from real masters (not that this proves a great deal either). Carl v Ting, Leung v Cheung, Chun v Chun (ouch!).
There was a great quote from a thread on the main forum where one Tai Chi guy said: “You can criticise my lack of chi as much as you like while I’m kicking your a**”
i’m sorry red but you talk like some sort of expert.
so once again ‘do you mind me asking how many times you have tested what you have learnt so far in actual comat?’
if the answer is none then i don’t think you really have any reason to make a judgement that what you are learning is the cream of the crop.
i know guys from lineages that have a lot less history of their instructors fighting than i do in mine however they have still gone out there and used it successfully in real combat.
and here i was thinking that they were bums because they learnt off someone who i thought couldn’t fight or even teach them to fight, gee who’d have thought that possible.
i’m sorry but i think you have no right to call people old timers or insinuate that many of us have been doing it wrong for so long that we don’t realise it when all you can bring to the table is 3 years of experience. even if you had travelled all of america, which you have not, there would still be a whole world to go before you could even begin to entain these stupid thoughts.
“If you have spent your entire life doing it wrong then you are still doing it wrong and have only become and expert at doing it wrong. I have met plenty of people doing it wrong, and who have been doing it wrong for a long time.”
wow, they must have been an awsome three years for you feel qualified to say that…but then again, you are undoubtedly training with the best in the world…or so you tell us.
i just can’t understand why no-one here except for fellow students of your lineage agree with you.
i’m also sorry if i offended you with the thing about you following them little closely & getting caught up their behinds but at that time i didn’t know that you were in line behind chriss99.
if you wish to talk wing chun that’s fine but give the lineage garbage a rest because i’m sure that 99.99999999999% have already chose one & found what they like & the other thing is you would be far from attracting anyone new after they read your posts unless of course they have lost the plot mentally & are looking for a new spiritual leader.
vts
VTS - Yes, one so far, it was over quickly. this was just two weeks ago and I still have the gouges on my hand to show for it.
Good fighting can be different then good wingchun. If you just want to be a good fighter then so be it, however I also want to be good at wingchun.
“if you wish to talk wing chun that’s fine but give the lineage garbage a rest because i’m sure that 99.99999999999% have already chose one”
Thats exactly what I have been saying.
You say my travelling and such is not a valid reason to have siad I have determined that most of the wingchu I saw was garbage? That also invalidates your claim to have been doing it a while by the same reasoning. you may want to reconsider the logic of that argument.
“i just can’t understand why no-one here except for fellow students of your lineage agree with you”
Hmmm, another large assumption on your part, and as inaccurate as the rest. Most of the people here have had a difference of opinion, no one here has stepped up to say they have seen Carls stuff or touched his hands or Kens for that matter and can say it sucks, or doesnt work. It was a good try though, keep working at it…
“wow, they must have been an awsome three years for you feel qualified to say that…but then again, you are undoubtedly training with the best in the world…or so you tell us”
Do you specialize in assumptions meant to antoginize or are you just having one of those days? All of the cliches still apply VTS, if you assume you know what that does, and pointing fingers means you have three pointing back at you. I recommend you calm down, take a deep breath and realx. If you are interested in actually discussing this instead of mudslinging and name calling and general assumption making then please, lets discuss but I am no longer interested in this sort of exchange.
just as i thought.
after a deep breath, that was unfortunately filled with bong smoke, i can now sit back & appreciate the man that is red5angel.
you have thwarted me at every turn & proved to me beyond all reasonable doubt that you do know what you are talking about & perhaps i have just been hit in the head one too many times but with this final load of dribble i will leave this thread to its own devices & only hope that we can talk as nothing but wing chun brothers who share a common goal on a thread that is more about techniques and how they apply to reality than one of these highly over rated pi$$ing contests.
love ya work red & hope to hear from ya real soon.
vts