A Challenge....

r5a - Saying you speak for yourself is meaningless. You have to actually speak for yourself. It’s kind of like “You’re stupid, but I mean that in a good way.” The small print doesn’t erase the large. “Come and see me.” is speaking for yourself. “Come and see my sifu.” no matter the framing, is speaking for your sifu. That’s an important point that can cause real problems if you don’t come to understand it (luckily, we live in a time and place that minimizes the problems, in the old days, things could become downright disasterous).

Most of us are at the bottom of the mountain. That’s the point. Hyperbole (which is all this boils down to) is meaningless given that frame of reference. Self serving hyperbole (which is also all this boils down to) is even more meaningless. If you were a 30 year vet under Tsui Sheung-Ting, it would mean more.

I didn’t miss the point on your challenge. What you wrote was not for you but for those reading it. What you intend doesn’t matter in that sense, only what you communicate, including to those who may be predisposed to “misunderstand” you (see that other infamous “encounter” at a seminar in the 80s). It’s what others read (into) this that’s important. Martial etiquette evolved, in part, as a formalization of communication to prevent problems or misunderstandings leading to very bad results. This was/is especially true for well meaning students whose good intentions could lead to anything but. Again, we live in a time and place where its not as big a concern, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t. To many people (some just not nice people, but those are part of your audience), what you wrote could be considered insulting, provocative, and an invitation to confrontation.

On Emin Boztepe, are you speaking from deep, personal, first-hand experience or stories you’ve been told from others? I’ve never met the man and only seen small clips of him on video, and would never presume to speak so authoritatively on him. I’ve exchanged emails, however, with a student of his who seems quite knowledgeable (in physical sciences as well as WCK) and while a little different than what I do, he can explain what and why he does what he does, which is rare enough that it deserves respect (think about that a while - can you really explain beyond “sifu said” why you move the way you move, align the way you align, engage the way you engage…)

On ego, I was just pointing out a possible common miss-use of the term.

And again, “I would never do that for someone else” is a dollar short and a day late. You did, regardless of intentions. You put your sifu at risk. If it wasn’t your intent, you should have chosen your words much much much more carefully.

As to “the best I can find”, that’s a wild goose chase. I practice what my time allows that can improve me in substantial ways and holds up to fairly rigorous checking and testing. My teacher can explain what he does, how he does it, and why and when he does it, which is what I need, and he’s a true gentleman, which is what I respect. What if I met better and s/he was half a world away? What if I met better and s/he was a complete @$$hole. What if I met better but somehow I couldn’t achieve as good results? What if I met someone who was better at (a) but worse at (b)?

And again, I had the good fortune to meet and touch hands with Ken Chung. So do I still need to come see your sifu?

You don’t come off as rough, and I don’t mean to lecture. I do take this type of stuff fairly seriously, however, as I’ve seen some bad consquences at times. If you really think what you write doesn’t affect your sifu, your sigung, your family, you really need to rethink it.

Confidence is good and important, but in martial arts we temper it with humility. Yin and Yang are two extremes, and WCK, I’m told, favors the center.

And hey, if you really are doing “the best”, keep it to yourself or someone might come learn it who ends up mugging you :wink:

RR

the highest mountain

It’s probably off-topic, but I can’t help commenting what reneritchie said.

How do you know which mountain is the highest, if you’re near the bottom still and can’t see above the clouds?

It reminds me of my teacher who said, “There is always a higher mountain to climb”. After climbing to the top of the mountain, you might feel ecstatic. But your ecstasy will be short-lived because you will find out that there are other higher mountains. You might opt to climb down from your mountain and climb that higher mountain.

But how do you know that the mountain you are climbing is the highest if you are still at the bottom? Well, the answer is, “You don’t”. You have to climb to the top and find it out yourself.

Chen Taiji and Wing Chun

wujidude asked: Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl’s Wing Chun?

The short answer is yes. I remember when he talked to me in January about this how excited Carl was in the difference he felt in his wing chun. Chen Taiji shares some similar concepts to wing chun and, under the right tutelage and practice, it can enhance one’s skill in other areas.

I don’t speak for Carl, so please excuse me if I’m putting words his mouth. It’s not that he felt there was anything missing from his wing chun. Hardly. Though there are still things to learn from his teacher, Kenneth Chung, Carl had a unique opportunity to study closely with Master Chen, to whom Ken had introduced him many years before.

Michael

Hi all,

For those that are going to the seminar I would like to
give some advice based on the training and seminars
I have had with Carl.

Ask questions! eg What is rooting? Why is it important?
Why don’t you practice “speed” punching? Whats the most
important to train at my level? Why does the tan sau
look like that ? How is the Bong sau used? etc etc etc

Try things! For example try to attack in different ways
and see how it works (or not works). Try to get an
explanation what is good or bad in what you tried

Train! And try to touch hands with new people

Get hit! Sounds strange but its quite an experience. Its
a very very big difference to look at it and to feel it
first hand. What Carl teaches is soo much a feeling art
so please try to feel it. For most people it really is
a huge eye opener.

Most of the time you will experience alot of new things
and you wont really learn any new techniques. My experience
is that whatever level you think you are at you will
learn the most by doing more simple things, more basic
drills. The big difference is that you do it with more
precision and a clearer purpose. So take the oportunity
to really clean up your basic drills.

And have fun! I wish I could join!

Best regards
Joakim

www.go.to/wingchun
www.wing-chun.nu

Hey Joakim, II would like to add one thing to your statement. You mentioned you probably wont learn any techniques from Carl and it strikes me that what we are learning isnt a ‘technique’ based system. We learn the techniques and how they are applied but we dont concern ourselves with if and or type drilling. Carl really stresses sensitivity in adapting to an attack an dI got the impression you should just feel what is coming and do what is apropriate.

Michael sez:

wujidude asked: Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl’s Wing Chun?

The short answer is yes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------WHY?
The short answer could be yes if the wing chun foundations are incomplete IMO. Chen taiji and wing chun uses quite different principles for structure and motion. Therefore on the long run-
not really. If seriously interested in the distinctions- lets discuss substance and detail of structure and dynamics in taiji and wing chun rather than bore people with the ad nauseam repetitions of how xyz or
zyx or whoever is the best that there is. Lots of folks understandably think that their teacher is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But in discourse on lists really everyone is on their own.Show and share specifics to illustrate your points rather than just loyalty and praise..

Yuanfen, if you look at my response to Wujidude, you will see Carls brief explanation on how it has helped him and his wingchun.
Ultimately beyond the benefits he recieved from practicing Taichi alongside his wing chun, I think he just enjoys it. I know several peopel who have successfully studied more then one art without mixing them or getting them confused.

red5angel,

“The exact purpose of this “challenge” is to invite you to see what you think. You dont have to agree with me. If you come and you see and experience and you still feel like you got it, so be it. But I can guarentee you will walk away with new insights.”

I’ve been doing Wing Chun for about 6 years, there’s no way in hell I think I’ve got it. I’m always learning something new about the stuff I’ve already think I know. I will always walk away with new insights regardless if it’s with someone who has trained as long as I have or not. That’s why I think Wing Chun is so cool.

“Carl is tough and he is an exacting teacher. He makes us work, hard. Just when you think you are doing it well, he shows you how to do it better. he strives for perfection, and although it is unattainable there is nothing wrong with reaching for your full potential.”

That being said, I believe most Sifu’s expect this. Guess what red5angel you can practice as hard as you want, but chances are against you that you will never be as good as your Sifu. Also there are no guarentees that what ever Wing Chun you are doing will help you in a real life threatening situation. Time will only tell, train hard, train smart.

I hope you don’t think Chi Sau is what Wing Chun is all about. It’s just another drill that Wing Chun use’s that some other Martial Arts don’t. Chi Sau is great, but it’s not everything Wing Chun has to offer. Once contact has been made, then your Chi Sau skills can come into play.

reneritchie,

I like what you have to say. Keep the peace.

Chum Kil said - "That being said, I believe most Sifu’s expect this. Guess what red5angel you can practice as hard as you want, but chances are against you that you will never be as good as your Sifu. Also there are no guarentees that what ever Wing Chun you are doing will help you in a real life threatening situation. Time will only tell, train hard, train smart. "

Chum Kil, I must ask why you believe that one probably wont get to the level of thier sifu, or surpass them? I do believe that I can at some point, if I work hard enough, my goal is this regardless, not just to be better but to strive for that excellence for which my instructos represent.
As for real life threatening situation, in most cases violent conflicts are hard to deal with martial arts training or not. Most of the time, it can come in handy in a bar brawl, or at a party, or a unique situation or two. In general if you get jumped by a random person in the street, chances are there are multiples of them and they have done this before, or they have guns. In this case it is better to give what you have or run like hell. I do wing chun for alot more reasons then just self defense because fighting as self defense should be your last line of defense.

"I hope you don’t think Chi Sau is what Wing Chun is all about. It’s just another drill that Wing Chun use’s that some other Martial Arts don’t. Chi Sau is great, but it’s not everything Wing Chun has to offer. Once contact has been made, then your Chi Sau skills can come into play. "

Of course not, wing chun is made up of many things, chi sau is a drill. some schools and people overstress this or sparring but I have always been told that sometimes you must return to the beginning, like dan chi sau and simple rooting excersises. I take this to mean that chi sau isnt the goal and isnt the end all to be all. its just another step in my wingchun development.

If your teacher enjoys doing Chen and finds some benefit from it, then that’s great! :slight_smile: Even if he adds some of those elements to his Wing Chun teaching :slight_smile: Chen Taijiquan from the little i have seen from my own Sifu seems to be a very profound system, just like Wing Chun. Of course theres more than one way to do things, so many others may do different things to develop the skill (such as just training WC ;))

But i would just say that there are many people in the WC world who have put the time in and really developed a great understanding of the skill. Most of what you have said sounds like a general training session with a good teacher. No need to say ‘the Real thing’, ‘challenge’, or whatever - that just makes Politics rear it’s ugly head…we all know how ugly it is :stuck_out_tongue:

just my thoughts,
david

I think that mixing arts is sometimes a bad idea. Its rare that someone really comes up with an innovation. Normally it seems they are just covering a gap in thier knowledge, maybe out of convenience because it is easier just to go to a guy locally and get some instruction on another art then do some long distance travelling to find the answers?
You are correct, there are many ways to do things, but for instance, if you had to hammer a nail, you could use a screwdriver handle to pound it in but woudnt it be easier to use a hammer?

The Chen Thing

In my reply to wujidude who asked: Has Chen taijiquan improved Carl’s Wing Chun?

I said, "The short answer is yes. "

yuanfen responds: WHY? The short answer could be yes if the wing chun foundations are incomplete IMO.

To the casual observer I could see how this might be the assumption. The irony of this is that we’re talking about Carl. The number one thing Carl drills into his students is proper development of foundation skills matters above all else. Until his students acquire some rudimentary mastery of those skills they do not progress. He, himself, has an excellent mastery of those foundation skills, let me tell you, having been on the receiving end of them. Can he do better? Sure. His skill level is way above mine but the whole point of his doing the Chen taiji is that he saw it positively affecting his wing chun. If you were to ask me what specifically, I’d say it’s in his ability to amplify his power. The way we train already has a large “internal” component. Chen allowed him to tap into another part of that.

Peace,

Michael

Ok Michael

Interestingly- your sigung who has been exposed to taiji
has said that he just does wing chun. And he has power enough without taiji.
Right David?

chum kil said - “That being said, I believe most Sifu’s expect this. Guess what red5angel you can practice as hard as you want, but chances are against you that you will never be as good as your Sifu. Also there are no guarentees that what ever Wing Chun you are doing will help you in a real life threatening situation. Time will only tell, train hard, train smart.”

r5 said - “Chum Kil, I must ask why you believe that one probably wont get to the level of thier sifu, or surpass them? I do believe that I can at some point, if I work hard enough, my goal is this regardless, not just to be better but to strive for that excellence for which my instructos represent.”

I think that what chum kil means is that the only way for you to reach the level of your sifu or even to surpass him is if your own sifu has stopped training in wing chun. Even though you train hard in your wing chun your sifu will be training hard at it also. Plus with all the years of training that he has already put into it, I think that the only way for you to reach his level or surpass him is if he stops training, or god forbid, he passes away.

Well, this is a good point, BUT, I say that the learning curve tapers off so a lot of factors play into who is good and who isnt. If you have a good instructor and you have potential, you can be good as well. If you have a bad teacher and are good its anyones guess. I guess where I am coming from is, all things being equal…

On the subject of ___, he is a prime example of what is bad with wing chun. What he does is a watered down *******ization, an “improvement” he calls it over the stuff that is already offered. ___ himself might be able to kick my butt in no time flat but I would never call what he does wingchun.

Bottom line is, if YOU are not able and willing to beat him, YOU are not qualified to criticize him or his method, nor are you qualified to repeat anyone else’s criticism of him in public.

When you post here, you are representing not only yourself, but everyone in your WC family. You cannot disclaim your association nor your responsibility. So please don’t sign anyone else up for a fight. :slight_smile:

Different faces of Wing Chun

Hello,

Red I must caution you on some of your statements. You mentioned someone specifically by name and this is kind of a no-no. Let’s not bring personal differences into this already rocky road. The person you mentioned is considered by many to be a highly skilled exponent of what HE understands Wing Chun to be.

Given the fact that there are many variances in Yip Mans students alone I think it is sometimes laughable for any of us to try and determine what Wing Chun is or is not. Wing Chun is a highly personal art based on concepts rather than techniques. The original founders were reputed to have distilled several systems into one. Thus our art is an ecletic one from the start. History of many martial arts will find many of the great masters having studied and trained in several different martial arts and then incorporating what they found useful into their own personal approach. Perhaps the sign of a true master is one who can make the art work for them in just about any situation and can also pass on this knowledge to his/her students.

IMHO the goal of any Sifu is to have his students surpass them in ability and understanding of the art. Given the personal nature of the art I do believe that one will tailor things to suit their own needs and circumstances. In this way the art is no longer stagnent but will grow and expand. Keeping it fresh and applicable to todays needs just as it was 100 years ago. To ignore the need to evolve or adapt is to, IMHO, condemn the art to decay.

The founders of the art of Wing Chun wanted a combat effective method easily trained. They distilled it from what they felt was needed at the time. I highly doubt that if they were here today they would ignore something which worked just because it was not “Wing Chun”. I think that they would instead take what they felt was useful and mold it to the concepts of Wing Chun thus creating an effective method which still follows the basic concepts of the original founders. But hey, this is just my opinion no need to agree with me.

Bottom line is I intend to go home at the end of the day. If something will make that more likely then I will consider it.

Peace,

Dave

Ooops!

Sorry about that Dave, I am usually pretty good about not putting names in but I slipped there. Anyway, I sincerely apologize!

Sihing73 said - "I think that they would instead take what they felt was useful and mold it to the concepts of Wing Chun thus creating an effective method which still follows the basic concepts of the original founders. "

I think this is the key here Dave. I think it has to lie within the concepts of wingchun before you can add it, for it to be wing chun. The system is well thought out and has been tested for a while, in real situations. That means that making changes or adjustments can be dangerous. There are too many people out there trying to change the system and this can also be unhealthy for an art. All arts adapt and evolve, but sometimes its not in the interest of the art that it is changed…and change is not always good

Hi Red5Angel,

No problem we all make slips from time to time. But, as I am sure you could tell from some of the responses, a slip can cause numerious problems. IMO it is often best to avoid such “problems” when one can.

As to the idea of change I will say that change for changes sake is certainly not good. However, change in order to suite the specific needs or environment can be of great benefit. I am sure that one would need to adjust ones fighting strategy depending on the environment. For example you would need to modify your approach if fighting in the jungle, a snowstorm or on a parking lot filled with broken bottles and glass or on a sandy beach. While many of the core concepts would remain the same the application of some of the “techniques” would need to be adjusted according to the surroundings.

I also believe that nothing exists in a vacum. For example, some of the members on this board have made reference to growing up in places where wrestling is commonplace. Most of the residents of these types of areas have at least some familiarity with wrestling and some of its concepts. Now, one moves away and decides to study Wing Chun. Won’t some of that past experieince carry over into their own personal incarnation of Wing Chun?? In other words we all have personal experiences and bring this to the table in our training.

FWIW I have studied Wing Chun for a little while now. In addition prior to learning Wing Chun I had obtained my Black Belt in Judo. I also study the Pekiti Tirsia system of Kali. I have been friends with a very high ranking Kali Guru for over ten years now. We have exchanged training methods during the course of that time. While he and I may play the sticks together you can see a definite difference in how we actually do things. I strive to play the sticks from the concepts of Wing Chun. Or course, it does not hurt that many of the “concepts” between these two arts are very similiar.

However let me make one thing very clear; the more I learn about Wing Chun the more I find that has everything I may need. In other words while I may benefit from learning another art I am not saying that it is necessary to fill any gaps in my Wing Chun. Wing Chun contains throws and Chin Na which should be sufficient to deal with the majority of problems you will face. Still, if you are in a wrestling area and will likely be taken to the ground then it is wise to at least have a passing knowledge of wrestling in order to better understand the concept of the enemy. Thus you will be better able to defend against their attack. As Sun Tzu (check my spelling) said “Know your enemy”.

But, if YOUR Wing Chun does not have what you need then explore other arts and incorporate them into your art. Remember our art is one of concepts and you should be free to explore not be limited to a set pattern. A good book which will go far to explaining my approach is “LIVING THE MARTIAL WAY” by Forrest Morgan (again check my spelling of the authors name). I agree with his concept.

  1. Gain a strong foundation in your chosen art.
  2. Incorporate things you like from other arts, but build them on the framework of your chosen foundation.

Again as I said before; I intend to Win and go home each and every night. If something will enable me to stack the odds in my favour then I will explore it.

Peace,

Dave

post coital retoric

what is “good” is a very individual conclusion. someone may seem “good” when they chi sao with only “student level’ practitioners. but are they” good" when chi saoing with some one of the same calibur??
red…if you went to 5 differant schools and at each school the sifu was better than you…how would you make a discision about what school to stay at?? sounds like chasing a ghost to me
just because someone has better chi sao then me doesnt make me want to forsake my sifu and my school. it makes me want to train harder in my families style. and of course these are learning experiances. which is the point of chi sao…to learn
carl should publicaly challenge all sifu to come touch hands if he has something to prove about his skill level or if he wants to attract students. but are we talking chi sao here or are we talking fighting??? i know people with better chi sao than me but who cant fight at all using what they do in the context of chi sao. in fact ive seen alot of wc people who make things work in chi sao but cant make any of it work when we spar.
take for example leung sheung…he fought with his wing chun…he fought for yip man…the way he taught was based on fighting…same for wsl…these guys were impresive..they had good chi sao and they could fight…i certainly dont want to learn from a theory wc guy…so i make my choices based on numerous attributes…chi sao skills being one of them…the ability to communicate is important…fighting skill is important…someone who knows the internal aspects of wc…i want a well rounded sifu.:smiley: