Hey all, after some recent encounters on the street, I’m pondering learning Judo in order to be more comfortable learning to fight and control a clinched position and clothing grabs. My current background is WingTsun, and although I haven’t had any problems defending myself, I realize that the WT “anti-grappling” type stuff occurs much, much later in the system.
I was also contemplating BJJ for more ground work, but from what I’ve observed, the Judo classes in my area do some groundwork but also appear to give a lot more of the stand-up type grappling.
What are some of your opinions on this, especially the BJJ’ers in the crowd?
How much does freestyle wrestling involve clothing manipulation and such? From my friends that wrestled, there is no doubt that they can work from the clinch and such, but they didn’t really have good understanding of applying it all practically when wearing say, a leather jacket, backpack, scarf, etc..
That’s one of the reasons I considered Judo in the first place. The aspect of manipulating clothing (and breaking clothing grabs) along with a mix of takedowns and throws and some groundwork may give a good, varied introduction to what I feel I need to strengthen.
Just to clarify, my goals are to be prepared for a street confrontation, not a NHB/honorable sparring situation. And that’s why I’m inquiring to how useful the skills would be.
Fmann
judo is a good sport.
Although I have another perspective for your. (Again this is just my opinion, And remember free advice is worth exactly what you payed for it.)
Continue with what you are doing. Finnish something that you started, I know it’s the old-fashioned idea. But…
think about it, all flights do not have to go to the ground. And you being an adult, how likely is at that you will get into a fight anyways? I know things happen, but if you’re worried about a fight, think of it as life and death,NOT A GAME! if you go to the ground, when there is more than one person you could be in real trouble,
AND Consider , even the Gracies , who are among the best ground fighters in the world, can take a very long time to defeat an opponent. On the street you must think of seconds, not rounds or minutes for survival.
On the street, you must keep your head, maintain a safe distance from a potential opponent, and remove yourself from your potential problem, with a using violence. (If possible.) If not, a limited skill, (in any style of martial art.) when the chips are down, is worse than having no skill AT all.
I was always taught to one thing. Do it very well, and then move on.
You must do what you feel is right, for YOU. But don’t quit just because of what might happen. (Because it might not!)
In short,injoy your self, learn as much as you can, and do what is right for you.
Good luck. C.A.G.
Thanks curtis. I’m not thinking about switching styles, as I know the effectiveness of my WT – I have scars from knocking someone’s teeth out on my knuckles from a scuffle ~6 weeks ago.
I was considering learning Judo mostly to see if it could supplement my training in any way.
Learning judo will definitely be a merit, that’s for sure. I can’t think of any style which would be a disadvantage in knowledge of martial arts. It’s all about time and cash basically.
Keep practising wing chun,that´s my advice.
I like grappling but at the end of the day I guess it´s up to something else to finish the job fast and quick.
It would be a great add-on though,and if you have not found your personal art,or anyWAY! give it a try,you won´t lose anything.
Here´s one view:
let´s imagine someone grabs your sleeve/lapel,whatever-“hmmm,I could pull out a good-looking throw or a take-down/pin and so on”…or you could simply take out his eye,ear drum or something else.
No matter if it is your throat,sleeve,lapel,chest,shoulder,shirt…if you do have a hard strike (or similar) you don´t need a good,but probably more difficult,slower grabbing technique,just give a good shot!
It´s a good thing if you do have a gentle technique to take out a physically weaker opponent,you can give him a go with a grappling move,pin him to ground,immobolize him temporarily.
But if it is a life and death situation,there is no room for loving,if there are multiple opponents/stronger opponents/armed
opponents or all of them,you have to work it out quickly,you can´t go to ground,if you go,get up immediately,you are easy target for other opponents if you grapple on the ground.
You have to cause some kind of an injury that keeps them away from getting up and attacking again.
You do possibly have/or will have a good attack from your ving/chun/tsun/ving,so remember about vulnerable areas and go for them with full power.
I wish you the best of luck with your training.
The truth is, to defeat a man bare handed you need to be skiled in striking, joint manipulation, throwing and strangulation/choking. I have trained in Wing Chun and its anti grappling defenses (at least the ones I learned) are not effective against a skilled grappler. You also need to be skilled in 4 ranges of combat. You have the kicking range, hand striking range, clinch/trapping range, and ground grappling range. Wing Chun is good for hand striking range and some clinching/trapping. Wing Chun is a good hand striking art, but it is weak on joint manipulation, take downs, ground grappling, kicking and choking. Judo will compensate for ground work (in judo unless you exicute a perfect throw and win by ippon, the action goes to the ground…in bjj you cant win by a perfect throw, you just get a point so action always goes to the ground), throwing, gi chokes, and joint manipulation. Actually, in a one on one fight between two equally skilled apponents, I’d put my money on the judo guy. However, when visiting judo schools see what the school’s focus is. Some concentrate on throws while others on ground. A friend of mine was a US national judo gold medalist. His school has a very strong concentration on ground work (including pinning and joint manipulation). He is good enough to avoid being thrown, and always wins on the ground. Shop around. Just remember, in the long run, you are going to be defending yourself and your family. It wont be your masters, your forum friends, and or martial arts training partners. See where you think you’re weak and fill in the missing holes. Oh, there is nothing wrong with keeping one style as your main style. Even the gracies cross train in other arts, but always keep BJJ as their base.
I agree with everything above except for the joint locks. Maybe if you are trying to restrain someone without hurting them. In a real altercation I don’t believe there is time for joint locks. In many cases they are ineffective. Why waste time with them. Maybe I am missing something here.
fmm…I think u’re too concern with what u’re opponent is wearing…don’t worry about that…most freestyle wrestling deals with leg takedowns…so u won’t be really grabbing his jacket…u’ll be feinting high then going for his legs over and over and over again.
WALLACE…I think u are missing something…I too once thought it would take forever to get a submission or joint lock…lol…it took a blue belt 30 secs to joint lock me 5x. It’s quite easy…it’s not like a wrist lock since u’re putting your whole body into a joint lock…and BJJ philosophy in the street is to BREAK IT. Not hold it for restraint.
Good post(s).
MA fanatic-You have an important point,for you are probably more experienced,you may tell me if I´m right about that this splits players in two1-traditional jujutsu and such arts:-they do have a very complicated arsenal of techniques for different offenses and defenses
2-boxing,wing chun(as an example),karate and others:-Only very little grappling AT best.
My point:It must feel good when one has every possible fighting method under “control”,what hurts is that one can´t really settle on one,precious area.He has everything to a point,but can´t really master anything because he is nearly tearing himself apart while trying to reach to different directions at once.
A boxer may not be Royce Gracie,but he has one good technique which he trusts.
As shaolin saying says-I´m not afraid of your 10 000 (techniques,if that was the case) but rather your one technique that you have practised 10 000 times.
I think it is very important to cross train. Should one abandon his art? Of course not. You cross train not so much to master another art, but to know what you don’t know. Example, the Gracies have cross trained in arts like Muay Thai and boxing only to avoid fast/hard combinations of kicks and punches. Their awareness of such techniques and tactical approaches is enough for them to be able to clinch with their apponents in order to take the fight to the ground. Another example: When Mourice Smith (a world champion Muay Thai boxer) was training to fight Coleman(an Olympic wrestler), he trained in grappling. His stand up skills were top notch, but he needed some basic grappling training to avoid being defeated on the ground. Surely enough, he couldn’t stop a master grappler like Coleman from taking him down, but he did know enough grappling to manage to stand back up and finish the fight on his feet. Interestingly enough, a full contact Karate champion and Muay Thai champion named Moty Hornstein fought Coleman as well. He never cross traied hoping that his masterfull stand up skill would be all her needs. He was taken down and pounded to virtual unconsiousness. He was actually in a position that had he grappled for under a year, he would have been able to stand up from.
About joint manipulations. That is just one way of finishing a fight. My no means is it a meathod of choice. As a matter of fact, Judo and bjj arm bars, and leg manipulations are designed to break those limbs. In competitions people know when they’re coming and generally apponents hold the pressure allowing the other to tap. On the street, those particular joint manipulations would leave someone crippled. However, it is important to judge by the size and experience of apponent whether joint manipulation is the method of choice. Even the Gracies, with an enourmous arsenal of submission holds, usually stick to simple naked chokes, basic arm bars (taught to white belts), and/or basic punching / kicking. In real fights, the simpler the technique the better.
I guess it’s just because I have been taught that a fight should last two to three seconds. That is what I was referring to in regards to wasting time with them. I can see the value if a situation went into the clinch, but I would just prefer a few elbows to the head or collarbone and knees to the thigh/groin. Many bouncers and law enforcement people I have talked to have said that joint locks and leverages aren’t very effective when things get hairy. Especially when it’s rainy, hands and arms are sweaty…etc.
I think one should incorporate any techniques that are comfortable and they have confidence they can pull off. I just don’t think JLs will be an essential part of my arsenal when **** really goes down.
I have found that the more I am exposed to grappling of any sort the better I am at WT-and much more comfortable combatively speaking. Best to find a school that does some ground work as well. Caution:there are literally hundreds of judo throws but only 4 or 5 used heavily in competition. I don’t know what they are but learn those and compete/train heavily with them…
…also, while judo is a sport it is a combat sport nonetheless, and there is something to be said about training against an unwilling partner freestyle. Also, a skilled adept can put you down swiftly-and something will likely break when you land on the street.
Training wise do Judo at least twice a week and do WT 2+ times a week.
my experience i wing chun proves it to be effective in the four ranges of combat, with violent defensive techniques from grabs
sinle/double leg take downs chokes & various other chin na and grappling attacks. also many principles that you may implicate standing have proven useful a couple times i found myself on
the ground early in my training. wing chun, at least what i’m learning is extremley effective and well rounded. of course they don’t
promote taking the fight to the ground as a result of the unpredictacallity of a combat situation, people, weapons, etc.
and as many no-nonsense M.A.'s these techniques can’t be used for sports events. I’ve only done this for 3 yrs. have faith in what you study.
I’m glad that pure stand up arts are working out for some people. In general, just knowing how to fight standing up is not enough. I dont mean to keep using wing chun as an example. The same goes for any stand up striking or stand up seising (chin na, hapkido, aikido, etc.) art. I have seen stand up fighters, including wing chun people, be taken down to the ground at will. In early NHB competitions, as well as local martial arts tournaments, stand up fighters were dominated by grapplers because grapplers have something most stand up fighters do not. Grapplers fight like they train and train like they fight. Every drill is designed for grappling only, hardly anything is done in mid air (shadow boxing, forms, kata, hyungs, poomse, etc.), and virtually everything is performed against a contesting apponent. So while karate, kung fu, tkd guys may spend a partion of time performing self defense against a cooperating apponent and or practicing forms, grapplers graple grapple and grapple. When time comes to fight, they do just what they drilled to do. Judo guys are the same way.
As for fighs lasting a few seconds. Its a myth. I think there were several myths which started in a martial arts community years ago. Masters of striking spread the myth of one-strike-one-kill. Even though no one has ever seen it happen, everyone believed it. Grappling masters started a myth saying that 95%-of the fights end on the ground. That statistic was never proven or researched. There are more myths. Truth is, fights last as long as they have to last. Surprise sucker punches can end the fight in a second. I have also met a woman who fought and killed an intruder after a half hour struggle. I think we as intelligent people can now separate fact from fiction.
ma FANATICS…I have to agree about the less than 3 secs crap. Unless u’re fighting against a COMPLETE COWARD. I just don’t see that happening. 2 reasons…when a real fighter fights…he’s trying to kick your ass…for his friends and his self respect. The only way he’ll stop is due to BREAK( can be done with striking or grappling )…CHOKEs…or a KO( real hard to do unless u have a true element of surprise ).
The Three Second Street Fight comes from the makers of One Strike One Kill, and All Fights Go To The Ground. These myths have begun a long time ago to give an excuse for people to NOT learn or explore something. Grapplers would say, “why learn stand up if all fights go to the ground.” Karate sylists would say, “why practice grappling, with our classic shotokan style, we have one strike one kill philosophy.” Funny thing, though many fihgts go to the ground, many do not. And, no one had ever seen Gichin Funakoshi (creator of Shotokan) every kill anyone with one strike. As a matter of fact, his teachers have never killed anyone with one strike. lol Of course a powerful blow to a weaker apponent to a vital organ can kill. But, that is more myth than not. As for fights lasting 3 seconds, lets use our brains. Many fights are basically some poor ******* getting sucker punched. But, do we want to consider that fighting? That is a surprise assault. I can take my black belt, walk up to some poor shlub, ask him for his chair, he’ll say “no”, I’ll kick him in the head. Bang, fight over, and I used my style to end the fight in under two seconds. lol Lets get real. A fight is a fight. The guy will be trying to kill you using any means possible. His adrenaline will be running and most likely he wont feel punishment you deliver. The funny thing is, you ask the masters who spread this rumor and they’ll tell you straight in your face, “if you train hard in my style, you will have one strike killing power.” Ask them if they ever seen it? If they have? Who killed who? Was the police called? Wouldn’t it be murder? When did this happen? Where did this happen? What strike was used? You keep probing, and you’ll see many masters dismiss you or avoid you. Because most of these stories never happened. Once Kanazawa sensei was asked about his punching power. The man would shatter bricks with fists and was able to break any brick in a stack of 10 on request. He was asked if he mastered some mystical force. He just replied that his skill was pure physics and hard training. Even he, in his many full contact fights and victories ever killed anyone with one punch-one-kill or in 3 seconds. lol
MA fanatic
I reread my post. Please don’t think that I’m attacking only the karate stylists and grapplers from spreading martial arts myths. All systems are guilty of that to some extent.
MA fanatic
