I agree. Most fights don’t last 3 seconds or less. But that is the goal of my training.
One question I always keep in mind is “do I train to not be taken down as much as a grappler trains to bring me down?” My answer right now would be no. Sure people can theorize all day about their striking would be sufficient to avoid going to the ground, and most styles have some ground fighting. My theory is never ASSume. I don’t see what the big argument is. There are two places to fight. On your feet and on the ground. Why be great at one and mediocre at the other? Isn’t MA about being the best you can possibly be? When I think of being taken to the ground, I don’t think about Helio Gracie as the one doing it. I think about a big drunk redneck doing a form tackle on a slippery floor at a bar or in a parking lot. Many people wrestled in high school or college. This is a cause for concern.
I am not real big on “technique collector” styles like most MMA. I think one could train in Wing Tsun and BJJ at the same time, and be a very very difficult fighter to defeat. BJJ training really would not interfere with traditional MA training.
Just my opinion. I could never be wrong. 
ewallace: Great points. And, you’re right. Grapplers train much harder to take down strikers than strikers train to avoid being taken down. I have seen guys drill shooting in techniques for up to 3 hours straight. I stronly doubt that someone skilled only in striking can avoid being taken down by someone who is trained in grappling. There was a time I thought otherwise until a college wrestler taught me a painfull lesson in falling (keep in mind I had been training in stand up fighting for over 10 years at the time). But, you are correct. On the street we most likely will not be facing a skilled take-down artist or anyone from the gracie family. Good points.
MA fanatic
Judo is very good to study. The guys have great fighting spirit. When practicing judo it is very hard to fake. If you fake it, you get hurt bad. If you dont fake it, you still get hurt, but not as bad. You HAVE to try hard in it. For that reason alone, one should consider studing it if they have the chance.
Peace,
sin loi
yi beng, kan xue
Good point Leiming,
I haven’t thought of it that way. But that is the reason grapplers are such difficult apponents. They train like they fight and fight like they train. If in a grappling (Judo, BJJ, wrestling, pancracion, shooto, etc.) class you’re not giving your best, the other guy will dominate, and you may get hurt. In many other martial arts systems I see people doing techniques very sloppy, while yawning, while talking, and/or basically walking through the motions. In Judo, you won’t have a choice but to go all out.
MA fanatic
In all reality, if I ever got into a serious fight, I have neither the skill nor the power to kill someone with one blow. However, this is a good mindset and attitude to have. If you ever are forced to use your stuff, you have REALLY DO IT, no messing around. Put 'em down and get out. Of course, I’m not at that level, but that’s where I’d like to be eventually.
Judo is a very good choice.
This comes from an ex-wrestler and current BJJer.
Judo will teach you to throw somebody AND to use/defend, basic submissions. You will become comfortable, reasonably, with both standing grappling and ground grappling.
ewallace–joint locks take seconds, sometimes less. The reason that bouncers and police say it takes a long time is because 1) I’ve SEEN what police officers are trained in for jointlocks, and it scares me, 2) Many time people think of standing jointlocks/restraints. Totally different issue. I happen to think standing jointlocks are next to useless–so low percentage that it’s not even worth training them. Personal opinion.
IF you take Judo, train without the gi from time to time. You’ll need this experience. Also train under “BJJ” rules–the throw doesn’t end the fight. This will give you some experience dealing with an opponent that has a tear away type of shirt or none at all, as well as periodically allowing you to work your newaza.
Always a good choice…
My introduction to the fighting arts started with Judo lessons at the age of 7. I trained until I was 10 years old and switched to pugilism. I think having a background in these martial sports helped me with my overall athleticism and ability to assimilate new physical and mental concepts. Could just be innate though.
Judo is quite different than BJJ. Many schools fail to teach enough newaza (groundwork), and instead concentrate on throws. The 2 systems compliment one another, and I would recommend becoming proficient in one then polishing either your throws or ground game in the other. You have to have some ground knowledge, or at the least grappling knowledge.
Two of my friends took nationals in Judo a few years ago. One is also a European Sambo champion and Russian Sambo Gold medalist with a rank of ‘master of sports.’ I had to say that Judo guys, due to competition rules, have mastered the art of throwing to a greater level than BJJ. However, being a BJJer, I have to say that their ground game is weaker. Because Judo players get points for pinning (unless I’m mistaked), their control of certain ground positions is outstanding. As far as submissions and setting up submissions, BJJ is a few notches above. Also, Judo players can disengage on the ground and decide not to be stood up.
As for standing joint locks being useless, I would have to agree. I have spent 7 years studying hapkido from a very compitent Hapkido master (5th dan), who was also a Korean national full contact TKD champion (6th dan), and who held a 2nd Degree in Judo. Being a fairly well rounded Koream master, he himself stated that should he have to fight on the street, he would use Hapkido or TKD style kicking (the guy kicked with a power of a mule and was fast as hell), and boxing style punches (competed in boxing for 3 years and won amature level Soul Korean championships). He also said that should the fight go on the ground he’d stick to Judo grappling. Though having a masters rank in Hapkido with knowledge of numerous stand up joint manipulations, he himself told me that unless the guy is your weight (or less) and strength (or weaker), one you shouldn’t even try stand up joint locks. I can see a huge guy pulling them off on a little runt, or someone who is naturally strong pulling them on someone much weaker, otherwise they just wont work.
BJJ, shooto, sambo, catch wrestling, pancration, etc. type submissions take seconds and break joints instantly.
MA fanatic
why not try…
Shuai Chiao-
I’ve tried Judo & Hapkido- admire them both
But I think that Shuai Chiao may complement your WT better-
The head instructor a the Imperial Academy in flushing is trying to start a Shuai Chiao class- (he’s also a very good Dragon stylist, which is a sister system to WT)
here’s his #:
718-661-3157
good luck
MP
the standing joint locks you mentioned are exactly the ones I was referring to. As far as on the ground, that is not a territory I am qualified to speak about as I know very little and have seen even less.
Love Judo! Recommend it to anyone!
That said I’ll second what Swaiing Dragon said. The reason Shuai Jiao will more than likely complement your Wing Chun better is that the moves are initiated from standard CMA stances and postures. In many cases Shuai Jiao and Chin Na are the “hidden applications” of a posture.
One more shizot…
I don’t know if I agree with MPs assessment of upright grappling systems and techs. There are a lot of gyakute principles that the vast majority of martial artists don’t have a clue about. Tuite is more efficient and biomechanically sound than many of the priciples taught in Chin na and Hapkido, as well as Akijujutsu and modern Japanese JJ.
I don’t want to expound here but I will say that the Ryukyuan forms of standing grappling:locks, throws, sweeps, chokes and the like, are very efficective if done correctly. The secret lies in the preparation, angle and base.
Standing Submissions
The reason I am not fond of standing submissions is because they are practiced in a none contested vaccume. I am familiar with joint locks of Chin Na (studied them for 4 years). I am also very familiar with joint locks of Hapkido (studied them for 7 years). I have friends in Aikido, Ryuku Kempo, Kyoshu Jitsu, and Japanese Jiujitsu. After studying BJJ, and other forms of ground grappling (primarily shooto and pancration), I have to say that the stand up submissions, when contested with full force, will simply fail. I have yet to see Aikido students, Hapkido students, students of Ryuku Kempo (with their vast knowledge of meridians, and manipulation of pressure points for stand up grappling), put on protective equipment and/or resist the joint lock full force. That is why when these techniques were ever attempted against kick boxers and ground grapplers, they failed. I can’t imagine a stand up joint manipulation which I would not be able to either counter with another joint lock, and or strike my way out of. On numerous occasions we have seen guys from japanese JJ, aikido, and Hapkido come down to our school, only to be toyed with and tapped out. There techniques simply didn’t work. Wrist locks generally will fail. Wrist throws are simply impossible (look good when your partners flies through the air pretending to be thrown). All other locks the apponent will simply punch his way out of. To manipulate a resisting individual with a joint manipulation, one must first secure position. Unless you’re trying a lock on someone who is 30 or more lbs lighter, don’t try stand up submissions.
MA fanatic
Originally posted by LEGEND
[B]fmm…I think u’re too concern with what u’re opponent is wearing…don’t worry about that…most freestyle wrestling deals with leg takedowns…so u won’t be really grabbing his jacket…u’ll be feinting high then going for his legs over and over and over again.
[/B]
don’t know who’s been teaching you wrestling, but you’re gettin’ ripped off!
To sum up MA Fanatic’s points: Standing joint locks have too many degrees of freedom for them to be consistently reliable.
To get a standing armbar, I have to immobilize the:
Forearm
Shoulder
Flexibility of the spine
Hips
Head
Footwork of the individual in question
Ability of the person to change levels by bending at the knees
Might want to ask me to hold the wind while we’re at it.
Since doing the above is more or less impractical, what you wind up with is a “speed break.” And those work even less frequently.
At best, standing joint manipulation will move the person around to somewhere you want them to go. At worst they will get you smacked around when you should be doing something more productive.
Standing locks are just as high percentage as ground locks. Standing locks were designed to be used against someone who has grabbed on to you with the intention of not letting go. If you use standing na in those situations, they work great.
Water–do you mean they work as “breaks,” or they work to “get somebody to let go?”
Just curious. I simply don’t trust them. But I’m sure that’s a personal preference
Too much of a broad based question. Qin na “breaks” are basically throws with nasty grips.
In regards to what your asking about: A lot of the guys in my BJJ class are ex-wrestlers, so when we clinch up, there’s a few that grab your wrist and try to pull it down hard. That’s an opportunity for a wrist lock. Trick is, unless they commit to the grab, you can’t get the lock. Know when to use which tool
I can also use locks in situations where you grab my collar and shove me against a wall, standing head lock, bear hugs (front and back), any time you grab me with the intention of NOT letting go.
When I go for the lock, I’m looking to take you one of two places. Either down to your knees or into a wall/telephone pole/car etc. Just like BJJ, I want you pinned between me and something else. You can also take someone up on their toes, but I don’t like that method, too much room for error.
And if I miss? well, I’ll just throw you and see what happens from there.
Well, the answer wasn’t too broad.
It would be like hitting ippon-seio-nage by putting your shoulder in his elbow instead of his armpit (I don’t know if that would work, I’m just using that as an analogy.)
I understand what you are saying–if the person lets go, does that nullify the lock? Or do you have control over the joint?
And I think we seem to be saying the same thing–you need to drop the guy to the ground or pin him against something to get control of his body so you can break the joint… if you take him up to his toes, he can move around too much. Is that right? Or do I have this wrong?
Almost, it’s more like hitting seio nage while keeping his thumb up as if your hitting an armbar. Now you have a good chance of getting the throw OR the break. If you get both, it’s even better. Maybe one day we’ll talk about the neck lock in O Soto Gari 
If the person let’s go, you abandon the lock and use the grip for a throw. It’s like going for a triangle and the guy posts his free arm in your groin. You let the triangle go and switch for the arm bar. i.e. you lost the choke but still have his arm in position for another tech.
I’ve had teachers who could take me up on my toes and there was no way I was getting out. So it’s possible. But then, I know people who can rip Omoplatas all day and I can’t. It doesn’t invalidate the tech.