OK FINE! who wants to tell a kf guy about BJJ???

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

This is NOT a troll i repeat this is NOT a troll…
I learn kung fu…
In the interest of wanting to learn a bit more about what seems to be a very popular martial art on these boards im hoping someone will tell me about the art of BJJ.
What does an average class consist of.
What kinds of stratagie do you practice.
Are there any underlying themes to the application.
Are any aspects of combat stressed more highly than others.
I hear a lot about the ranking system in BJJ being very strong can someone tell me some more about that?
What is the history of the art?
Are there any forms practiced.

These are all just general questions, some of them i have an idea of the answer and just want clarification others i have simply no idea.
The only thing i ask is that no one trys to post about how much better it is than other arts. Tell me why it works for you and why you enjoy it.
As i say im not trolling im just generaly interested in finding out a bit more about BJJ as many seem very taken with it.

2

“What does an average class consist of.”

My classes start with warmups (running, rolling, shrimping drills, situps, and a variety of other things). Then we drill 2-3 techniques (say, for example, a takedown, a guard pass, and a submission - but the techniques vary from class to class). Then we roll with the gi (uniform), then without. I think this is a pretty standard class setup.

“What kinds of stratagie do you practice.”

BJJ seeks to get your opponent on the ground and get him into a submission hold, or get a superior position and strike him.

“Are there any underlying themes to the application.”

I can’t think of a theme that runs throughout BJJ, but maybe I’m not thinking hard enough.

“Are any aspects of combat stressed more highly than others.”

Ground grappling is stressed more than anything else.

“I hear a lot about the ranking system in BJJ being very strong can someone tell me some more about that?”

The belts in BJJ are white, blue, purple, brown, and black. The times it takes to earn them vary. I heard BJ Penn got his black belt in two and a half years, that’s the fastest I ever heard of anyone getting a black belt.

“What is the history of the art?”

A Judoka (or Jujitsu stylist, according to some) called Maeda went from Japan to Brazil and taught Judo/Jujitsu to the Gracies. Over the years, the Gracie family changed to art to emphasize ground grappling more.

“Are there any forms practiced?”

No.

“The only thing i ask is that no one trys to post about how much better it is than other arts. Tell me why it works for you and why you enjoy it.”

I enjoy it because its fun, I guess. It works for me because it just works, I don’t think anyone claims BJJ is ineffective.

3

Mr. Nemo

Thanks a lot for your reply it sounds like a very interesting art.
How long have you trained?

Anyone else want to post there experience please do i would like to hear from as many as possible.

4

Hopefully no experience. Relevant to history, There was a national hero who helped a newcommer to the country. The newcommer–an instrucyor taught the hero. The smaller brother of the Hero refined the techniques Older did to suit his smakker frame. Smaler brother Helio? was more technically correct than older (who could get by relying on his limb length and strength).

It seems to be the old stuff from Japan upped with the confidence of and backed by the Pride of the Gracie family back then. And accentuated with the culture of Brazil as to the boa constrictor type style. I saw this in particularlly one of the Gracies and might just associate that attitude to the Art~.

5

Our classes are similar.

We often roll first for 15 to 20 minutes and then do some drills or learn new techs.
We seperate the days we do gi and no gi.

I like the style for many reasons,
It’s the most effective style I’ve trained in.
I find it allows one alot of freedom in that you develop your own particular style of grappling.
It suits me better,I found that I was more gifted in ground fighting than in striking.
You can beat guys that out weigh you alot(I’ve done this many times).

I have my blue belt and will be going for my purple this year.

6

There’s not much BJJ in England. I think, I may be wrong, and if so, can somebody tell me? I think I would use it to get a basic versing in the ground game.

7

I like Nemo’s description but don’t agree with the belt description. Very few people ever get to the black belt and the purple belt is equal to a black belt in many other MAs. I am only familiar with the Machado and Gracie BJJ but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are McBjj out there where you could “buy” a black belt after a couple of years. Stay away from the McBjj…

The difference between grading in BJJ and many other MAs is that it is the instructor that decides when you are ready fo a higher belt. During a training he can just walk up to you with the new belt and congratulate you on jour grading. The training then stops and everybody applauds(a great feeling). If you are a blue belt and can roll with the purple belts, showing the maturity that comes with a higher belt (and of course are able to apply the techniques), than you are ready.

8

Very similar to Nemo’s description except we alternate gi, no gi nights.

Strategy-Most fights will end on the ground if one guy wants it to go there so take it there and control the situation. I don’t agree with the blanket statement that most fights go to the ground that is thrown around so often Seems to me that if neither person want to go down it stays a stand-up game but if either want to go to the ground it seems to happen.

Underlying theme- Mobility. Both physical and mental. The fighter that can change position most quickly/easily has an advantage as does the one who can change attacks/mindsets. If you get in a place where you can’t move or you become mentally fixed on one attack, your opponent has the advantage. Maximize your mobility and minimize his.

The belts are few and far between compared to other styles I have seen. As a result a blue belt means alot more (in terms of ability) around the waist of a BJJ students than it does around most other MA students. Same is true of the other ranks as well. BJ Penn in 2.5 years? Wow!! Didn’t know his ranking. I do know however that he had a live in instructor and practiced pretty much all day every day. Amazing when you think that in this country there are students that get black belts going 2-3 nights per week for an hour.

I don’t think it’s so much better than anything else but it is alot of fun. Can practice pretty full out with minimal injuries compared to other styles. And it is an essential part of MA training in my mind. Doesn’t have to be BJJ necessarily but one should definitely be familiar with groundwork esp. submissions.

9

“Are there any underlying themes to the application?”

I’m not sure if this answers that question, but from what I’ve learned the importance of positioning is key when using the techniques. When I practice, I am taught to place positioning as a priority over the submissions in most cases.

For example, If I have a chance to take someone’s back (get behind them), I might have the option of either going right to a rear choke (if I have surprised the opponent) or securing the back position by hooking my legs around him and try to work the choke later.

The trade off of losing the element of surprise would be having a position of advantage that increases my options (work for the choke, or even strikes/another submission) while reducing the risk of being put in a disadvantage position that I have to fight out of. It usually takes much more energy to break out of a position of disadvantage that it does to hold a position of advantage, which adds efficency/energy conservation to the benefits of positioning.

This emphasis also covers the ability to transition to other positions when needed. Having a good position when applying a submission is usually the difference between a strong opponent bicep curling his way out of an armbar and the same strong opponent tapping faster than someone playing “Track and Field” on Nintendo, because his bicep can’t fight someone’s entire body.

When people watch a BJJ match (or UFC, Pride, etc. where two BJJ people are involved) and say it’s just two guys rolling on the floor with each other, they probably don’t notice that what’s happening is a battle for position (and/or they hate BJJ/NHB trolls and are bitter :wink: ). When it takes a long time, it’s usually because both opponents are well versed in ground positioning (or not versed at all :slight_smile: ) and they know what to expect and how to counter. In most cases, the submission happens when one of them makes a mistake the other is able to capitalize on it.

Heh, maybe I’m wrong though. I’m still new at it :slight_smile: .

10

I heard BJ Penn got his Black Belt in 4 years. Someone mentionned he didn’t go to college but his parents payed for instructors to come and teach(in Hawaii mind you). 4 years of bjj = a black belt degree. Not everyone could do this regardless of having personal instruction. He is an amazing athlete.

I heard that 12 years is the average amout of time to get a black belt without any previous experience. My instructor got his in 6 years, he had previous grappling experience. Just to get a blue belt can take 2 years or more but sometimes only 6 months if you are a quick learner and good athlete.

Belts are based on how good you are. You don’t have to memorize katas or the history of your art but rather you need to be proficient in the techniques and be as good as others on that belt level. It is all about how good you are, period. No bought belts here. You progress slowly if you aren’t good and quickly if you are.

The philosophy behind BJJ is “Position over Submission” and “Technique over Strength”.

11

Truewrestler is rite. BJ PENN got his belt in 4 years…he trained full time and his parent had some $$$. Normal time is 8 years or more…

12

IMHO

Bjj is too ground orientated.

Judo is better, nice mix of both, and WAY better principles. No leglocks etc. though, and needs to be supplemented with a striking art.

13

BJ Penn got his blackbelt so fast because he was so talented, anyway, not because he went to a McBJJ school. I understand some McBJJ schools do exist here and there, but they’re fairly rare.

14

“Judo is better, nice mix of both, and WAY better principles.”

DelicateSound,
If you don’t mind my asking, could you give examples/explain why Judo has WAY better principles than BJJ? Please don’t think this is a troll post. I am interested in both BJJ and Judo (grappling in general, actually) and am just pokin around for more info about them.

Thank you.

15

OK

TigerStyle - I know you’re no troll :slight_smile:

OK, I am NO EXPERT, but when I started Judo, I went to every Judo, jujitsu, and BJJ class there was.

OK, originally in the “early days”, Jujitsu concentrated on strength in their throws. Judo used the idea of Maximum Efficiency, and beat Jujitsu in an official competition held by the Tokyo PD, sometime in the 1800’s.

When BJJ was formed it learned a lot of this M.E. stuff (its founder was a Judo man, not JJ) Can’t remember his name.

However, it is not fully implemented in modern BJJ. The new stuff that was added by the Gracies was not held up to the M.E. theory like the stuff Kano had created. There are MANY other principles that have been b*stardised, or even lost in the transition to BJJ. Kano’s principles are upheld by the Kodokan, and by the many masters of Judo that survive. As a modern style it hasn’t been re-evaluated by centuries of masters.

I’m not knocking BJJ, its an OK style. I just prefer Judo. Its more coherant in its form and function. BJJ has a lot of inefficient excess that can cloud the issues.

Sorry if this is vague, or sounds like waffle. I’ve had little sleep and have exams to revise for!!! :smiley:

If you want TS, i can find some good articles/sites that know more about this than I, and can post you the addresses of them for you.

16

DS,
Thanks for the response! I would like it very much if you could post some links to articles or websites on the subject.

You can take your time, no hurry. I can wait 'til after your exams (and some sleep) :slight_smile:

17

Tiger;

Good is Good
Bad is Bad
Leverage is Leverage
There is nothing new under the sun, ESPECIALLY when it comes to grappling :slight_smile:

As far as Judo vs. BJJ being a thing of the “maximum efficiency with minimum effort,” I can only offer this: What DelicateSound said is his opinion. He will be unable to demonstrate a valid set of specific incidences that show that the M.E. principle is NOT followed in BJJ, any more than I can demonstrate that it is. All I can tell you is that I’ve been grappling for several years. ALL grapplers seek the path of least resistance by maximizing the use of large muscles on little ones and through leverage, be they Judoka, wrestlers, BJJ’ers, etc. The game changes as the goal changes and that dictates the difference in strategies and techniques. In short… you become good and efficient at what you practice. Judoka have great throws, and good pins, BJJer’s great submissions and ground positioning, wrestlers a phenomenal base, leg attacks and pins. In all instances, one is neither less nor more efficient than the other; it’s simply that the game is different.

18

Originally posted by Merryprankster
What DelicateSound said is his opinion. He will be unable to demonstrate a valid set of specific incidences that show that the M.E. principle is NOT followed in BJJ, any more than I can demonstrate that it is.

MPS - It is JUST my opinion, and as you are obv. a BJJ guy - I mean no offense. :slight_smile:

As for being unable to prove etc. it’s a long time since I’ve done Judo, but I truly believed it was the best when I studied it, and I’m pretty sure of it now. I’ll try and prove you wrong :smiley:

Tigerstyle: I might have a bit of free time to search (I hope). But I can’t promise. After all, proving MPS that I am right, won’t convince the Board of Examiners for my French A-level that I’m an A-grade student!!! :slight_smile:

I’ll post it on the main board if (when:)) I find it.

19

No offense taken delicate,

It just smacks of the “style vs. style,” debates. Every legitimate art has something to offer if you chase it down. I like Judo myself and wish I knew more of it… but you know what? It feels like wrestling… almost exactly like it, from a principle perspective, hence my assertion of no “best,” just “something different.”

20

MPS

I wasn’t going down the Style V Style route. I hate that.

I agree all MA’s have something to offer. BJJ has a lot to offer, it is a very comprehensive art in that it comprises a lot of Judo, Jujitsu and thanks to Royce, some KickBoxing strikes. For me though - it’s too muddled!! :slight_smile:

Judo is a little too much like wrestling and way too sport based. That’s why I dropped it, to take up [when I find a good school!!] Tai Chi. I need some internal aspect to my style! :smiley:

I think Judo revolves around “Maximum Efficiency” in a way that most other grappling arts do not. It’s not just about muscles and positioning, but about centre of balance, weight shifting, pivoting, angle of force and of resistance. You learn a lot about how too maximise the efficiency of your weight and force against your opponant. It’s as much of a science as an art, and has taught me a lot.

As for “best”. It was the best for me at the time, and I still think its principles are the best of all the grappling arts. That’s cause I like principles. :slight_smile: If you like swords you take up fencing etc. Just IMHO!