OK FINE! who wants to tell a kf guy about BJJ???

It’s not just about muscles and positioning, but about centre of balance, weight shifting, pivoting, angle of force and of resistance. You learn a lot about how too maximise the efficiency of your weight and force against your opponant. It’s as much of a science as an art, and has taught me a lot.

Sounds like wrestling, BJJ, etc.

My only point here is that you are going to learn the same sorts of things, with perhaps modifications or adjustments in the other arena-- those judo footsweeps are hard to pull off without the gi! To say nothing of Makikomi type throws, uchimata (must have wizzer grip without gi) and forget the one armed seio-nage…O-soto-gari is next to impossible without clothing as well :slight_smile:

Please realize I am talking about pulling these throws off against a reasonably skilled opponent. I’m sure that I could do a “no-gi” version of O-soto on a novice.

Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]

Sounds like wrestling, BJJ, etc.[/B]

Umm. Maybe. But wrestling etc still concentrates too much on force Vs force IMHO. Using the opponants force against them is a great skill to master.

My only point here is that you are going to learn the same sorts of things, with perhaps modifications or adjustments in the other arena-- those judo footsweeps are hard to pull off without the gi! To say nothing of Makikomi type throws, uchimata (must have wizzer grip without gi) and forget the one armed seio-nage…O-soto-gari is next to impossible without clothing as well :slight_smile:

Now you’re getting technical on me :smiley: From my experience of Judo in Streetfights (shirts as gi’s), I’ve used only a few techniques:

*O-soto-gari: I COMPLETELY disagree with you :). Step thru him with all your weight, pull hard on his right arm to force him onto his right side and instead of a taking a lapel grip, put your arm around his neck. [I smack the guy hard in the carotid at the same time]. Make sure you sweep at the back of the knee and dip your head to add your full weight to the move. He’ll hit the dirt and won’t get up. IMHO swing a jab first to make him lean backwards before you move in. This’ll put his COG somewhere behind him slightly.

*O-goshi: If he’s coming for you, its all too easy. Just grip, bend and roll him over into a nice broken pelvis :smiley:

*Tai-Otoshi. A grip is needed, but not a really firm one. Grip his shirt above the elbow joint and roll the wrist and you’ll be OK.

*Ko-Uchi-Gare/O-uchi gare: Combine 'em with a knee to the balls first.

*Yoko-Gake: Simple weight shifting. He’ll go down like a playground game of “haystacks”.

*Soto-Make-Komi: You do have to go to the ground with him, but your weight’ll bust a rib, and you are in a good position to get up and run if you like.

*ALSO: Waza-Gatami - straight joint lock. One of my Favourite moves. Has saved my ass a couple of times (once when I was in school in a playground brawl!!!)

BTW: Nice to be able to argue nicely with someone!!:slight_smile:

Right–shirts as gis!

Nothing wrong with Judo. Love what I’ve done.

And agin: as long as two factors are involved:

  1. Your opponent has next to no prior grappling experience, as I outlined above.
  2. Your opponent has an article of clothing that doesn’t tear away or stretch a ton or is sheer. IE, a jean jacket is LOVELY, but a surfer’s rash guard is NOT so cool.

I would argue that you’ve never seen high-level wrestling if you think it has more “force on force.” Common argument about wrestling and just not true on SO many levels.

All the major and minor hip throws work. No problem. They work no-gi just as well, so O-goshi–no argument.

Ko-Uchi and O-Uchi–hard to do on a good grappler without a good grip because breaking the balance that way is NOT easy without it… that nice strong push/pull arrangement just isn’t there..

Soto Maki-komi is almost impossible without a “gi” on a decent grappler-- you can’t bring them round the “heavy” leg without a strong sleeve grip without getting tani-otoshi’d or ura-nage’d.

Tai-Otoshi–murderously difficult on a decent grappler with no gi–the strong sleeve pull is vital for off-balancing to the forward corner so they come over your leg. Without that strong of a grip it is simply not doable to throw somebody with that much distance between you and their body.

Yoko-Gake–same problem–with that much distance between you and the other guy, a strong grip is necessary and hard to get without a “gi” to hold onto.

Please, remember, I’m talking about somebody who’s got some stand-up grappling in their background! :slight_smile: You can make ALL of these work on somebody without that!

omg MP, has Rhadi been teaching you all that Japnese??? =)

. The new stuff that was added by the Gracies was not held up to the M.E. theory like the stuff Kano had created. There are MANY other principles that have been b*stardised, or even lost in the transition to BJJ. Kano’s principles are upheld by the Kodokan, and by the many masters of Judo that survive. As a modern style it hasn’t been re-evaluated by centuries of masters.

I have a headache and MP has some gooood restraint. Don’t worry DS; I won’t try to cross your bridge

actually i don’t think you are a troll, just ignorant

sorry MP for killing any good karma on this thread.

Thanks to all

Thanks a lot to everyone for telling me more about your art. It really does sound very interesting and if im ever given a chance to get a grounding in it ill jump at the chance. There is not much of it over here in Aus to my knowledge.
On the whole Judo vs BJJ thing. I have great respect for both skills but in all honesty i have a hard time classifying Judo as a martial art so much as a sport. BJJ dispite certainly having a sporting element also contains pure fighting in the true sence of the word. That is no knock on Judo just i dont think comparing them is a worthwhile debate as they have different final results.

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Please, remember, I’m talking about somebody who’s got some stand-up grappling in their background! :slight_smile: You can make ALL of these work on somebody without that!

I suppose. All the times I’ve fought grapplrs had been with gi’s, and all of the above works fine for me.

Any time I’ve had to use it in the street the opponant [probably] had little or no experience. So I do see your point. However in my experience, a decent rolled grip on a shirt can work OK. Unless it’s silk it’ll usually hold for long enough to take him off balance. And yes a jean jacket is lovely! :slight_smile:

*Tai-otoshi: I once used the variation where the arm circles the neck [can’t remember the term - sorry]

*Soto-maki-komi: You’re right on this. The amount of times I’ve been countered… :slight_smile: Ura-nage is a b!tch.

Like I say I don’t have the worlds greatest experience, and this is all IMHO. It’s worked for me, I’m sharing my info. That’s all. And all the wrestling I’ve seen has been in MMA tourneys. I wasn’t too impressed IMHO :slight_smile:

Instead of what I’ve said, what would you do against a grappler on the street? You’ve got me interested now :smiley:

Truewrestler: Eat sh!t somewhere else OK. I’ve already stated about 20 times that this is In My Humble Opinion. I understand you have a differing view, and am willing to accept what other people say. Just cause I don’t always back down doesn’t make me ignorant. I’m entitled to my views as much as you are to your
[very single minded] ones.

You’re calling me a troll. A Kung-Fu guy who is having a discussion about Judo [an art he I don’t study anymore]. It WAS a nice pleasant discussion. If I wanted to troll I’d say:

“Kodokan Judo is superior. End of story”

I’m not. I’m entering into reasonable discussion. At least I was until you stuck your sh!tty oar in. Unless you want to contribute properly, keep the f*ck away from me and my bridge! :slight_smile:

lol @ Unless you want to contribute properly, keep the f*ck away from me and my bridge!

you just said that bjj sucks…i took offense and apologize for my reaction. Please keep on with the discussion.

Didn’t Judo spring off of JJJ ? I was told( and probably wrong ) that Judo is like the sport aspect of JJJ.

If ( hypothetically ) a BJJer can’t take someone to the
ground, are there any standing techs? “Most fight take to the ground” Although I disagree with this statement, what would one do if fighting multiple enemies? I know the chances of wining are slim with any art, but isn’t it kinda pointless to try to takedown one person, if there were more than one attacking? If there are multiple attackers one cannot take to the ground, and fight for position. I’m definately NOT knocking BJJ, I think it’s very effective, I’m just curious as to see if there are any standing techs.

Truewrestler

Sorry I snapped. Ignorance is just something I hate, thats all. Sorry :slight_smile: But I never said BJJ sucked. Its good, I just prefer Judo. Although Ralek has made me hate Royce Gracie ETERNALLY :smiley:

YA: Jigoro Kano was a Jujitsu student who created Judo.

Jujitsu - The art of Gentleness.

Judo - The Way of Gentleness.

He added a lot of science and philosophy to JJ in creating Judo and at some point in the 1800’s Kodokan Judo defeated JJ in a tournament in Tokyo to decide which art the police would use.

BJJ is pretty different though - and takes a lot from Judo, JJ and even Kickboxing.

All 3 are good styles. I prefer Judo.

DelicateSound;

Judo WILL work on the street–NO PROBLEM! :slight_smile: But some of the things are just SO hard without the gi, that’s all I was pointing out.

Let me put it this way: All other things being equal, if you put a wrestler against a judoka without the gi the judoka will lose, and vice versa when the gi is on. Totally hypothetical, as there is no such thing as “all other things being equal,” but you catch my point.

I personally consider the uchi-mata a “wrestler killer,” when the gi is being worn, because the wrestlers stance is more crouched over, and that’s PERFECT to get loaded and dumped.

Without the gi, judoka tend to be HIGHLY susceptable to leg attacks because they don’t see them often and because you can’t use that nice grip to stiff arm the opponent.

As far as “what would I do against a grappler?”

I’d poke him in the eyes, knee him in the head on the way in, execute a limb destruction or elbow the base of the neck or spine as I sidestep out of the way… and I would do all of this without attending to my own balance first :slight_smile:

Ok, SERIOUSLY–Judo and wrestling are kissing cousins and some minor adaptations need to be made to no-gi. Here’s the thing: You don’t KNOW if the guy that decided to fight you has experience grappling or not… so, your makikomi MIGHT work… your Tani-Otoshi MIGHT work, etc, but there are more adaptable throws that are just as good–IF I were a judoka trying to execute on an opponent w/no good handholds, I would go with the hip throws and their variations, and some of the backwards trips where you are in tight.

This is what the gi allows you to do in judo-- from a DISTANCE, you can control your opponents balance. Without a gi-like article of clothing, you have to shut the space down in order to do the same thing, relying on underhooks and overhooks, etc, and that makes things like O-soto-gari a little harder because at that distance, it’s practically a half-hip throw anyway. Or take tai-otoshi–without the balance broken hard to the forward corner getting them to “throw themselves” over your planted leg is really hard… and if you can’t do it from a distance, then you’ll be in tight, and you won’t have the space to break their balance properly… and the backstep you do to execute it will turn it into a hip throw from that range. The bottom line is that wrist control and arm control just aren’t good enough to break balance unless you have an unearthly strong grip. Think about trying to do hiza garuma or hirai tsuri komi ashi or de ashi barai (or is it harai)without a good pull from a distance on the sleeves and I think you’ll understand.

This means that hip throws, ura-nage, fireman’s carry (kata guruma), etc, and a few of the back trips are your best bets–all of them can be executed in the “underhook/overhook,” range of grappling. I’d avoid the sacrifice throws, just for the record. Why go down if you don’t have to?

And remember Professor Ed Malley’s Mantra-- “If at first, you don’t succeed…punch him in the face and throw him again.”

Mmm

I totally agree about the advantage of a gi for dist. balance control etc. There is no way anyone could pull of something like de ashi barai without a gi, unless they were Kyozo Mifune!

IMHO, I would use hip throws etc. but I’m best at them anyway. I think if I was fighting a wrestler, I’d just use my Kung Fu. A nice series of hooks and jabs to weaken him, before the kill…
Sumi-Otoshi might be OK without a gi, as might be Uki-Otoshi. I never really used them much so I can’t give evidence. If you’re brave, Kani-Basami could work! :smiley:

As for sacrifice throws, I love Tomoe-Nage! And used to be able to pull it off OK. But that was in the Dojo, not on the street.

Yes, judoka do have a hard time against leg attacks and tackles. BTW: You can pull off Kata Guruma?!

If I were to use my Judo now, I’d combine it fully with strikes. A strike on the way in, and one after completion. The first’d disorientate him a little, the latter to make sure he’s down!!

I just wanted to say that I really dig this thread, and the knowledge of Judo that you both seem to have really surprised me :slight_smile: .

Merryprankster,
I’m gonna have to give the argument to DS, only because his original statement has recently indirectly been proven by Ryu (or Ryu-lek, from the sound of those posts :wink: ) on another thread. :slight_smile:

Actually, I was interested in your post about the different strengths of wrestling, BJJ and Judo in relation to each other. Is it common for people to cross-train in different grappling styles? I hear it sometimes, and the people that I know that do it seem to blend it together nicely. Do you (or anyone here) feel that there are any advantages/disadvantages to that approach? (I know that might just start a big cross-training argument, but this thread has been good so far. I have faith :slight_smile: )

Tiger,

Judo and BJJ is a very common crosstraining combination, for obvious reasons, but there is a diminishing return. You are better off to spend most of your time throwing if you are interested in Judo comps, and better off to spend your time on the ground if you are interested in BJJ comps. BJJers training wrestling takedowns is also very common. Wrestlers training Judo or BJJ… not so much, if you are serious about WRESTLING. Catch my meaning? No need to study submissions if your goal in life is to pin somebody. Also, why learn clothing specific throws? You already have a repetoire of no gi throws and attacks that transfer over to gi (underhooks and overhooks always work, clothing or no) If you are interested in competing in MMA type events, then training in submissions is vital to your success if for no other reason than you need to know what they are and where they are coming from (See Royce Gracie vs. Dan Severn).

As far as Ryu, I’m sure he’s got some interesting combinations and things to say, but then again, he’s better at Judo than I am and has been working for a long time at figuring out how to make judo work from a combatives perspective. And to be honest, I’m not sure there is an argument here (not that you are really implying that there is one). I think there are just some very real differences between gi and no gi grappling and once those are addressed, grappling principles are grappling principles and they work pretty much the same way. A Judoka on an untrained individual on the street is just as dangerous as any wrestler. Probably even more so, because Judoka are at least familiar with submission, and also train to remain standing on most of their throws. If I had to pick one of the styles for self-defense, ie, if I had to choose, I’d pick Judo. It’s got enough of everything to be dangerous at any grappling range.

The truth is that I don’t know much about the names of these Judo moves. I’ve been pulling them off a website. I can’t even execute most of them! However, I CAN see, because of my grappling experience, what, fundamentally speaking, is required in order to do them… I know where you have to pull, where the weight has to go, etc

Delicate: Yup, I can pull off Kata Guruma. I’ve used both the knee down variation and the “standard” way. I already knew the knee down, so I gave the standard way a go a few months back. The trick is to get them to commit their weight to the leg you want to attack and pull HARD out, up and away, then DOWN with the sleeve. This pulls them off balance forward very neatly and puts their center of gravity clean over your shoulders… light as a feather, then dump them whenever you choose :slight_smile:

Also, you know, I HAVE seen footsweeps work no gi… in fact, it was without upper body contact at all! Rhadi Ferguson vs. Jeff Monson.

Please understand that Rhadi is the current National Judo Champion, so the rest of us might not have that as an option :slight_smile:

Merryprankster,
Thanks for the response. It was very educational.

The reason I posted about Ryu was because of a couple of posts he did on the “JF Springer backed out!!!” thread where he says Sakuraba is a Judo man that destroyed BJJ (He even used sentence structure and grammar similar to Ralek, lol :slight_smile: ). I had just read that before responding on this thread and thought it would be a funny coincidence. :slight_smile:

Couple more questions:

  • If you don’t mind my asking, what is your training background? (I apologize if you’ve already posted about it.)

  • (I’m assuming you have wrestling and BJJ experience. If not please disregard this one if you like): What do you think about people that get into BJJ and have a prior wrestling background? Are there any signifigant techniques/philosophies/habits that help or hurt them? I have a couple of friends that have done that, and they tell me that they were able to progress faster in the beginning, but they have habits from wrestling that usually cause them to make mistakes against higher ranks.

Some of the specific things they have noted are a tendency to give up their back rather than putting their back on the mat, a reluctance to adopt/improve their guard position (usually due to the first statement, and the shorter time limits in wrestling matches), and that some of their wrestling moves were easier to stop when wearing a gi.

As far as strengths, they said that they were able to takedown people with little difficulty during the sparring/free rolling, and the conditioning from wrestling practices have helped them out in their BJJ classes.

I was curious if this was common for BJJ students with a wrestling background.

Thanks again!

(Just to keep this kung fu related): I like Shuai Chiao. I wish there was some of it here in Vegas.

Tiger,

I have around 5 years of wrestling experience and 2 years of BJJ.

The common wrestling advantages

  1. Your base. Sweeping a guy who used to wrestle is hard work. You know how to be an immovable rock and how to catch yourself on the brink of tipping over and you know WHEN to do both. There is one sweep that works more consistantly against wrestlers however—the helicopter sweep. Wrestlers are trained to constantly apply forward pressure…drive drive drive. Well, the helicopter sweep is tailor made for that. Don’t ask me to describe it… I’d have to write a page and a half. Horribly easy to execute on somebody with lots of forward pressure though.

  2. Your sensitivity. You already know how to move on the ground. Your comprehension and retension is better than most because you aren’t mucking about, trying to figure out how to get your arms to do THIS, but your hips and legs to do THAT at the same time.

  3. Takedowns. Obviously :slight_smile:

  4. Hard work mindset. Even the laziest wrestler worked harder than most amateur athletes… and I’ll take that one to the bank! :slight_smile: Even if your conditioning is bad, you aren’t scared to work hard… you know the conditioning will improve… push push push.

Common disadvantages

  1. **** this @#$@$#!#% gi!!! It’s like wearing a straightjacket till you get used to it. It doesn’t take long :slight_smile:

  2. Guillotine, armbar, triangle. Wrestlers tend to leave their necks sticking out on the shot (guillotine), extend their arms when applying pressure (armbar), and think that one arm in, one arm out in somebody’s guard will help them pass (triangle). Quickly remedied when you stick with the game.

  3. Giving the back-- I think this is more mindset than “wrestling.” I was always a counter wrestler and still am to a great extent… for me the guard was a beautiful, shiny, new toy to play with and I loved it. No problems there. However, if you REALLY like to be super aggressive and bang bang bang forward, the guard doesn’t feel like the best place in the world.

That about sums it up, I think. Really though, if you stick with it, all the disadvantages disappear, unless you are REALLY thick headed or just not interested in learning.

Thanks, Merryprankster, and DelicateSound!

With what i can tell Merryprankster must train with Lloyd because of True’s Rhadi comment. So there for their comments on BJJ should be highly considered. BJJ is what you make of it. If you want it to just be straight gi ground work then that is what it will be. you can also transform that BJJ into something more. IMO only really in Brasil is straight BJJ practiced. In the US you have the mixed form of BJJ which throws in all from striking to takedowns to great ground positioning to leglocks. So instead of saying all well all BJJ is is this try mixing it up to your own version of BJJ. Don’t jam yourself with names, release yourself technique.

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
Merryprankster,
I’m gonna have to give the argument to DS,

One-nil - I rule :smiley:

Seriously though - its great to be able to discuss something on the forum [esp. grapple-related] without it being trolled. Nice posts everyone! :slight_smile: