Which Groundfighting style you recommend

Hi everyone,

I am just curious what groundfighting style you would choose
to supplement your kungfu.

BJJ
Judo
Greco-Roman wrestling

I am particularly interested in knowing if BJJ and Judo are
still effective if someone is not wearing their kimonos.

Will greco-roman wrestling be more effective because it doesn’t
rely on grabbing clothes?

I have no particular preference. I just want honest, experienced, opinions.

The reason I bring this up is because I read a thread in this forum the other day which mentionned that a BJJer should be careful against a wrestler because they are proficient at what they do.

Don’t forget SAMBO.

Is there such a thing as groundfighting style? Except BJJ maybe…? Judo and Sambo too,I think,have so much more to give besides that.

I remember Black Belt magazine made a brave but rude statement that 80% of judo&jujitsu grappling is ineffective if there is no gi to ruffle…
that has been questioned though,there are still so many techniques which won´t rely on that,they should not at least.

Groundwork is not generally big thing in KF but maybe we could add kou chuan/dog boxing which deals pretty much with that,not to mention it´s probably rare.

It wasn’t Blackbelt Magazine that said that, Rickson Gracie did in an interview in that particular magazine.

Hmmm

If it was Gracie that made that comment then doesn’t that just smack of biased ignorance or what? Personally I always favour Judo over BJJ mainly because in the sparring I have done only A Judoka has brought me down and the 2 BJJ’ers who have tried have woefully failed. This of course is no universal opinion on BJJ but on a personal level it felt so much weaker and inificient than Judo.

I’d tell you to try out catchwrestling but hookers are few and far between, it gives a different perspective from BJJ’s groundfighting and they teach throws and takedowns also.

Re: Hmmm

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
If it was Gracie that made that comment then doesn’t that just smack of biased ignorance or what? Personally I always favour Judo over BJJ mainly because in the sparring I have only ever had a Judoka has brought me down and the 2 BJJ’ers who have tried have woefully failed. This of course is no universal opinion on BJJ but on a personal level it felt so much weaker and inificient than Judo.

Repulsive Monkey…LOL…try doing some research dood. Rickson Gracie mention that Sports BJJ is quite different from the Vale Tudo version. The truth is…the Vale Tudo( aka Anything Goes ) is quite easy to learn and apply. I suggest buying a face mask helmet…some light gloves…and an BJJ instructor that will teach u the Vale Tudo way of fighting. Is it different from SPORTs BJJ. YES…u don’t use a lot of fancy techs…like spinning sweeps or fancy escapes from bad positions. I think alot of peeps that advocate BJJ prefer the sports aspect( CHESS ) and in some way find the VALE TUDO training brutal. I know I do!

one of our guys turned into a really great ground fighter, he started out mma with us then got into judo. ever since then hes been able to trash just about anyone all the bjj doods included, he says the judo gives him much more feeling for position just my 2 cents

Lot of anti-BJJ bias running around.

Greco is not going to teach you groundfighting in any appreciable way. You will learn a lot of throws and upper body clinch skills. The touch/exposure fall of Greco limits groundgrappling in a way that makes it ill suited for combat ON THE GROUND. It has other highlights, but that’s not one of them. Folkstyle wrestling, frequently called collegiate or scholastic in the U.S. has a heavy emphasis on controlling the opponent on the mat. Consequently, there is a higher degree of matwork. In fact, the majority of the match takes place on the mat. Usually. :wink:

Catch wrestling is ummm… well, the honest truth is that, not only are hookers few and far between, nobody can really decide what Catch means. It’s a DEAD ART, like latin is a dead language. You can try and recreate it, you can even read and write it, but nobody REALLY KNOWS FOR CERTAIN what this was. We have books and photos and some really good ideas about what all this is, but the line between Catch and early “WWF,” type matches is so blurry I don’t think anybody really knows where one stopped and the other began. I’m not knocking catch, I’m just trying to throw some historical perspective on things. It’s basically wrestling with Submissions, and it carries over wrestling’s aggressive physicality along with a knack for slapping hooks (submissions) in in some places other arts might find very odd. It’s good stuff, but finding “real,” Catch isn’t going to be easy–and they have more lineage type arguments than WC. Good BJJ feels like a straight jacket made of water. Good Catch Wrestlers feel like they are trying to mug you. Both work fine. The guard is heavily de-emphasized in Catch. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it poses it’s own set of problems.

Judo does have a lot of the BJJ groundwork. However, the argument that these two are one and the same holds no water for me. They have diverged sufficiently to become seperate entities, IMO. In Judo you will at least learn the rudiments of groundfighting, but there is no guarentee you will spend much time on the mat. Very generally speaking, a person who has spent 2 years in BJJ will wipe the mat with a 2 year Judoka, IF you limit the discussion to groundwork only. Stand-up, and watch the BJJer’s feet hit the ceiling as he gets thrown like a ragdoll :). It’s a matter of what you train. Judo’s emphasis, for the most part, and as it is commonly taught, is about the throw. Again, not a bad thing. But groundwork focused per se? No.

Sambo will expose you to a greater variety of locks. Neat stuff. The rules of Sportive Sambo limit groundwork time to some extent, so there is a “bang away,” feeling for the submission. Be prepared to garner some major leg injuries if you do this stuff. I’ve never met a Sambo player who didn’t hurt their knee severely at least once. Sambo guys tend to be vulnerable to a good guard player because it’s not used very often. On the other hand, BJJ guys frequently fall prey to Sambo’s leg-lock expertise. Six of one, have dozen of the other.

Most BJJ schools have at least one class a week of no gi work. Most of your BJJ moves will work without the gi. They are just modified slightly and the setups change a little.

‘’–and they have more lineage type arguments than WC.‘’

[SIZE=3]Must be really something![/SIZE] :smiley:
Catch also gives me the impression that physical force is more essential to the style than in BJJ!..

Old Jong, I’m not sure that’s accurate. It just comes from a different tradition. For instance, the American Style of wrestling is spectacularly aggressive and the idea is that we will outwork you. The Iranian style does not have quite the same aggressiveness. Both are successful. What fits you best? :slight_smile:

Remember that a sportive competition requires great conditioning, so having an “I’ll outwork you,” attitude isn’t all bad.

Actually, Matt Furey claims that catch wrestling requires less physical stength than BJJ.

Merryprankster, would wearing knee pads while practicing sambo help prevent such injuries, or at least make them somewhat less severe? If so, do you know of any particular brand of knee pads that give good protection? Thanks in advance.

Knee pads would be useless to prevent the damage from twisting leg locks, but do reduce wear and tear on your knees overall.

I like Asics Gels. A very good pad. They run about 14 bucks a pad (not pair) but are WELL worth the price.

Matt Furey is a blowhard, IMO. Grappling is grappling and requires a similar level of conditioning regardless of what you do. He can probably kick my butt, and he probably has something decent to teach but he runs his dang mouth so much, I don’t wanna listen.

Stranger,
returning to that strong words on judo thing,it was presented in Black Belt mag in an article which was basically of kung-fu chin-na,which was displayed as somewhat superior grappling in a way :slight_smile: There was no mention on Gracie (or grazy family as Jon Bluming says) but the comment was not made by KF player(s) even though the article was theirs.

in my opinion

if ur hard core kfer…learn a as much chi na as possible- if u do it right u can do many techniques standing and on the ground-

i’ve tried sambo, judo, and hapkido- and enjoyed them all- sambo is an entire art form that should be learned ,like shuai chiao it incorporates strikes, throw/takedowns but has more ground locks.

judo is awesome training (the variation of throws are incredible), but has limitation to ground fighting because of its sport aspect,

hapkido is very good (like its brother system, tkd, it very cardio), but it depends on the instructor you study with ; if he prefers kick, locks, punches, etc…

i’ve only sparred with bbj guys- never really took a hardcore lesson…

The way of moving on the ground is different. Period. You have to practice down there or it doesn’t matter how good your chin na is.

Not knocking Chin na, just pointing out a necessary training component.

Thanks again, MerryPrankster. I also really like what little I have seen of African groundfighting. Good luck trying to find a school that teaches it, though. The only person I know of who teaches it is Lloyd Kennedy somewhere in California. I think Sensei Kuntz in California learned some stuff from Lloyd Kennedy, so perhaps he knows this style as well.

I agree with MP - chin na doesn’t just automatically transfer to the ground. you can do small joint manipulation on the ground, but it differs from standing.