Is the BJJ fad passing or still going as strong as ever?
Some signs seem to indicate that it has peaked and has started to decline.
Your views?
Like Karate and Ninjitsu before it, the popular fad is slowly (thankfully) easing and the real practitioners can continue in their chosen art without all the meathead attention. As can the rest of us.
Careful - you might wake it up again!
Originally posted by Serpent
Careful - you might wake it up again!
Just curious what the next fad will be??
FMA or similar??
BJJ proved a point by exposing the weakness in the training of many MAs. I think a lot of MAs are addressing that weakness, so BJJ is no longer the overwhelming force it was when it burst onto the scene. That is not to say that it is any less effective, simply that people have learned to deal with it a bit more effectively.
BJJ exposed a sport weakness under a certain set of rules.
How often did you hear about BJJ people successfully taking out street attackers, etc.?
It was a media frenzy in the MA world more than anything else.
The next fad? I’m betting on Wushu, with the Beijing Olympics and all the movie fu at the moment. I think it’ll be the next big thing. Obviously for very different reasons.
Wushu it may be.
Either way won’t affect my Kwoon luckily, at the most we will get a few more people peep in and leave again.
Originally posted by Serpent
[B]BJJ exposed a sport weakness under a certain set of rules.
How often did you hear about BJJ people successfully taking out street attackers, etc.?
It was a media frenzy in the MA world more than anything else.
The next fad? I’m betting on Wushu, with the Beijing Olympics and all the movie fu at the moment. I think it’ll be the next big thing. Obviously for very different reasons. [/B]
Well, yes and no. It did expose the fact that a lot of TMA practitioners had no idea what to do when they were taken to the ground. Now, while this doesn’t occur 90% of the time as claimed by the Gracies, it does occur in real life.
Yeah, it can. But how many people that end up on the floor in a streetfight are at the hands of a BJJ practitioner? They’re usually just being accosted by a d!ckhead who has no knowledge of any kind of systematised fighting, let alone a solid wrestling/ground game.
But what happens if they DO? What happens if your friends are chicken**** and don’t come running to your rescue? What if your leopard strikes don’t have the effect on the ground? What if you slip on a puddle of beer and fall? What if you haven’t explored this in a live environment before it happens?
Nobody’s been saying (outside of the trolls) that it’s an ultimate art-- in fact, the Gracies have admitted it has serious holes in it for self-defense situations. However, it addresses something fundamental in combat-- the ground game. It simply makes more sense to me to be aware of that, rather than to simply treat it like a myth, such as chi-blasts.
Calling it a fad like ninjas or whatever is doing a great disservice to a very real aspect of real-life combat.
I’d rather train for the worst then hope for the best, ya know?
Edit: Let me make it clear that I prefer the stand-up to the ground immensely. I’d rather throw or hit somebody with my feet solidly under me, no question about it. That being said, I think I’m going to take steps so that I’d know what to do if I ever got on the ground, because at the moment, I know very VERY little of anything that works there.
Serpent
That is all true also. However, even a schoolyard bully knows to sit on the person’s chest/abdomen once they have them on the ground, and that from there you have far superior position for ending the altercation.
I guess my point is that prior to BJJ hitting the scene, a lot of MA had simply ignored the part of their training that might deal with being put on the ground. What BJJ did was to make people think about that facet of their arsenal again, and I don’t think that is a bad thing.
As with anything that gains sudden popularity though, there have been soem very annoying aspects of it, but as usual that has been perpetuated by the standard percentage of d!ckheads that any MA discipline will attract 
Agreed, that BJJ was an eye-opener for many MA.
Also I think many MA started to neglect their ground-fighting skills due to point-sparring and similar competition formats. Judoka always aimed for Ippon to win.
I think in the future serious MA will research what their style got to offer in counters and answers to the ground game.
TMA are not known for making rabid changes or adjustements.
To be honest I think we will see an evolution of all MA thanks to BJJ, these counts for both ground-based and striking/throw-based arts.
Just some random thoughts.
Agreed, LC.
I think we’re on the same page on this one, for the most part. And surprisingly… it doesn’t hurt. Not one bit.
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]Agreed, that BJJ was an eye-opener for many MA.
Also I think many MA started to neglect their ground-fighting skills due to point-sparring and similar competition formats. Judoka always aimed for Ippon to win.
I think in the future serious MA will research what their style got to offer in counters and answers to the ground game.
TMA are not known for making rabid changes or adjustements.
To be honest I think we will see an evolution of all MA thanks to BJJ, these counts for both ground-based and striking/throw-based arts.
Just some random thoughts. [/B]
I also think a lot of TMA had ground fighting techniques in them, but they were simply neglected and in some cases lost because of the neglect. I know for a fact that my sifu has never studied anything other than Ngor Chor, but he knows counters for several ground fighting situations (though I am sure it is not as extensive as an art dedicated to ground fighting). It is just that the focus tends to be on stand up/striking.
Originally posted by Serpent
Yeah, it can. But how many people that end up on the floor in a streetfight are at the hands of a BJJ practitioner? They’re usually just being accosted by a d!ckhead who has no knowledge of any kind of systematised fighting, let alone a solid wrestling/ground game.
The majority of the people I know that have been in bar fightrs were high school wrestlers…
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Also I think many MA started to neglect their ground-fighting skills due to point-sparring and similar competition formats. Judoka always aimed for Ippon to win.
That hasn’t changed - they have to train according to the format they are competing in
I think in the future serious MA will research what their style got to offer in counters and answers to the ground game.
I dunno… I think that just restarts the vicious cycle that BJJ broke. People said “this is a defense against a tackle” and everyone thought that that defense would work - until they had an experienced grappler double leg them. You can’t find the answers within your style if nobody at your school knows how to properly execute the technique you are wanting to defend against.
TMA are not known for making rabid changes or adjustements.
To be honest I think we will see an evolution of all MA thanks to BJJ, these counts for both ground-based and striking/throw-based arts.
I dunno, for the very reason you stated above - too reluctant to change.
[/B]
The difference between the above mentioned fads and bjj is that bjj exposed a major flaw in the thoughts of many people’s game. That’s something that will never die, especially in the sport fighting arena.
Sevenstar.
I don’t think that the groundfighting skills are truly lost, just that they have been neglected. There are a few styles I am aware of that do have ground fighting techs.
I think that there are still people within each system that know them and can train/teach them.
Also I am sure that those counters could be found in older documentation and be re-introduced by skilled MA.
Naturally they would have to be tested and adjusted for modern applications.
I think that the biggest stumbling blocks will be if students are willing to learn them or not.
I have seen it in my current style, some moves actually make people reconsider if they want to learn our art.
I guess my point is that prior to BJJ hitting the scene, a lot of MA had simply ignored the part of their training that might deal with being put on the ground.
Or had REALLY dumb ideas about what to do there, vice ignoring it
Serpent:
I know, personally, two people who have used their BJJ in a streetfight. One broke his opponents arm and ran like hell. The other managed to reverse position, make a hole, and run like hell in a group situation. That opportunity may never have existed if he hadn’t taken BJJ.
As for your argument, how many people you might get in a brawl with are trained fighters of any sort? There’s no ultimate style, but I sure don’t understand what the problem is with “going to the experts,” to get what you want/need.
I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that BJJ is waning.
And I don’t really agree with the assessment of karate, BJJ, TKD, kungfu, or even ninjutsu as a ‘fad’.
LC, even here in Tokyo, there are many MMA gyms like Purebred, which deal with some well-rounded skill sets inc groundwork from old-style JJJ as well as BJJ, thus helping to keep both of them alive through the tried and tested business of giving people useful skills that they enjoy/want! And then add the Gracie JJ gym in Meidaimae, and the other two different BJJ gyms that have grown up in the last couple of years…
As you know, in Tokyo, there are martial arts for every taste: from the fluffiest to the most ring-tested to the too-deadly-for-the-planet variety, and BJJ more than holding its own.
As for the ‘fad’ thing: sure there have always been fad practioners of martial arts, as there are of weight-training, home-brewing, bee-keeping, just about every activity known to human kind… but I don’t think there are that many more in proportion to serious practioners in MA, traditional or otherwise.
IMO (based on no evidence, purely my own experience), I would
say there’s a higher proportion of people who stick to their art through thick and thin, even when it’s obvious their art is a bunch of crap!.. ahem, has a different goal set… ahem…!
Sure, karate, kungfu, TKD and ninjutsu styles have all hit the spotlight through Bruce Lee, Ninja Turtles or whatever, but why should people trying something out be labelled as a fad?
BJJ is here because of good marketing, and more importantly, skills or training techniques that people feel they need, or they enjoy. I see it as a MA at least as traditional as many styles of karate, as aikido, as TKD etc, and I’m happy for it to stay rolling around on the floor at a dojo near me!
Just my 2 yen.
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
[B]I don’t think that the groundfighting skills are truly lost, just that they have been neglected. There are a few styles I am aware of that do have ground fighting techs.
I think that there are still people within each system that know them and can train/teach them. [/B]
Oh go on then: do tell! What styles that are reasonably readily available have groundfighting techs? And are they useful? Give us an example or two of these training methods…!
The problem, without going too far into old forum burial grounds, is that if they have been neglected so, as you say, the chances are they are no longer practical/alive. If they were, how the hell did BJJ corner the market so well?