Hmmm, lets see Jujitsu.
I have also seen Taiji Guys defend against takedowns and similar.
I am pretty sure that the Shaolin based arts will also have things in them to counter takedowns.
Like Joedoe said, don’t expect the same level of depth as in BJJ, but there are some that have it.
It all depends on how you employ what you were taught in your style.
Seeya.
Mat.
I know that there are all falvours of MA in Tokyo, I also know that a few BJJ/MT schools are now starting to advertise a LOT and offer cardio-kicks classes for ladies and similar.
Agreed that many people will stick with their art even though it is crap.
Cheers.
“If they were, how the hell did BJJ corner the market so well?”
Which market are we talking about? How have they cornered it?
In this months JAMA there is an interesting evaluation of the evolution of MMA (Focused on the UFC).
The author notes that statistically (the guy watched EVERY fight), striking is beginning to overtake ground submissions for winning fighters. This is a result of rule changes and adaptation by the fighters. The author also notes that only once in the UFC has a throw been the deciding technique, which is interesting. That I think may be causing a new flaw to emerge in martial arts…the willingness to fall without proper caution because of the advantages that can be gained by heading down to the ground.
So has the BJJ phenom come and gone? I don’t think so. I think people will continue to see the value in this powerful and interesting martial art. But BJJ, at this point, has had just as much a reality check as the old stand up only fighters.
LC[b]
Hmmm, lets see Jujitsu.
[/b]Sooooo, that’d be the JJ after the B, right?!!!
[b]
I have also seen Taiji Guys defend against takedowns and similar.
I am pretty sure that the Shaolin based arts will also have things in them to counter takedowns.
[/b]Yeah, I’ve seen that too. But just now you were talking about groundwork, and I asked you for specifics, and you’ve come back with counters to takedowns. This is different.
shaolin b
Which market are we talking about? How have they cornered it?
I’m talking about the market for people who like to roll around on the ground! Don’t get me wrong, I know that in that so-real-sit that everybody talks about but that not many people actually get into, the aim of BJJ or any JJ is not to roll around on the floor, but to get up with an advantage: but let’s face it, a lot of people from year dot like to roll around on the floor and pummel their buddies!!! I did it at school and out of school, and I bet most of you did too, unless you were playing with Barbie or something!!!
SB, I can fully believe that striking is regaining it’s popularity in MMA, and has never lost popularity in TMA, but I can also believe that ground grappling also has it’s place in MMA… and as such is not losing it’s popularity with the folks that like that kind of thing.
LC, the BJJ schools I’m talking about don’t advertise at all, and sure as hell don’t offer any boxcercise but still have a firm TMA-based following … like the one in Komagome… it’s not Gracie, (can’t remember its origins but…) which has a hardcore following of TMAers, including some people from the JJJ style that it sprang from.
Edit: SB, I agree that the lack of ability to take a fall, and the blase way in which some people think taking a fall ‘outside’ will be a bowl of cherries because they can then get their six-billion dollar choke on is a dangerous trend for a rounded MAer… but since I practise both when I get the chance, I don’t care!!! Plus, it has no relevance to whether BJJ is losing popularity or not, eh?!
At my master’s school we all bring Gi’s to class. They are part of our gear, no different than boxing gloves or head gear. When called for, we grab the gear we need to train what we need to train that night.
Training goes from stand up grappling to ground fighting. Like all our training, it’s about rules – how to get and maintain position, what mechanics to turn to for power and leverage – not technique per see.
My master’s style is E-chuan, but he teaches Ba Gua, Hsing-I and Taiji as well. I would consider us a traditional school in the real sense. We train martial arts. I would think other Ba Gua and Hisng-I guys out there are comfortable on the ground as well. Principles are principles. I believe it’s just a matter of being comfortable and keeping a cool head at different ranges of combat.
With that said, I’m thankful for NHB and BJJ in particular, because they opened my eyes to many weaknesses I had as a fighter. It caused me to go out and seak solutions. I think many BJJJ however, would find the same if they checked out a good Hsing-I school. I think their mechanics would be improved. As they specialize on the ground, Hsing-I specializes on getting the most out of a movement.
Yeah, but EF, that’s part of what I was saying.
LC was implying that BJJ may be losing popular appeal because it’s niche market, that of groundwork, was covered by other arts, albeit
I don’t think that the groundfighting skills are truly lost, just that they have been neglected.
You’re saying that your school still practises them. Fair play. But if you neglect it, you haven’t got it!!!
As my Sensei was always so fond of saying: If you don’t use it, you lose it!
This thread is sooo 1995… have we learned nothing?
Originally posted by truewrestler
This thread is sooo 1995… have we learned nothing?
I have learned to put my underpants on before my trousers and only to take them off when alone or alone with my girlfriend.
What’s your point Mr Wrestler?!
My point was that BJJ and submissioin grappling in general is a vital part of fighting and is here to stay.
Gooood, that was my point too.
Unfortunately, my fingers are working overtime today!
TW - That is soooo 500 AD 
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
We train martial arts. I would think other Ba Gua and Hisng-I guys out there are comfortable on the ground as well. Principles are principles. I believe it’s just a matter of being comfortable and keeping a cool head at different ranges of combat.
That’s not entirely true… the principles of standing grappling do not directly translate to the ground.
its not like u train Bagua & then poof u’re perfect on the ground. u’ll have to train specifically for it.
When I was in college, I knew a girl who was a BJ phenomenon. She was pre-med, too.
You lose a lot of the power generated from pushing off the back leg, but STRONG SHAPE and POSITION are still No. 1 in my book.
To go further becomes a discussion of technique, which is futile over the web. Just like, “Tell me what you do to stop a shoot.” Even if it is explaned well on here, no one believes it anyway. Or everyone comes up with a dozen counters – which do exist. I’m learning that there are actually very few “dead” locks. I’m learning how to get out of some stuff that had me tapping before.
Of course the ground is different from standing. Just like my reaction (don’t like that word, prefer to think of it as training kicking in) is different when my back is turned, or sitting. But the principles, rules, formula – call it what you will – is the same.
If you disgaree, it’s simply because we are taking a different aproach to our training. Which is all good. I just like my way better:D
I think that suggesting FMA is a very poor choice to label as a possible upcoming fad. More so with how I think you join the word fad with some lack of depth in history and function.
Everything FMA has in spades.
IMO BJJ just reshowcased to the hardline traditionalists that the ground range was a neglected part of there training. There have always been ground fighting arts but none with the national marketing background of a MMA fighting event behind them to get the masses interested.
Something which should be commended in the long run. But again you have BJJ’s mother art of judo, you have jujitsu, catch wrestling, folk and freestyle and many, many other ground fighting systems from the world over, spanning both sport and combative.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
You lose a lot of the power generated from pushing off the back leg
?Que pasa?
Hsing-I drives off the back leg. Collapsing someone has as much to do with the back leg driving (think pushing a car) as it does with the shape of the arm and using shoulder/elbow power. On my back, I can’t drive off the back leg the same way. I can still use the legs for leverage in some positions, but not nearly to the extent as standing prone. But keeping my arms in and in a strong shape, using the upper back, shoulder, elbow, and wrist (Hsinh-I bear and eagle) for power, doesn’t change.
Aha, thanks. I just wasn’t sure what you meant.
