BJJ is more than just ground fighting right?
How much stand up do you do?
In tai chi we split stricking/grappling 50/50.
based on your reply in the ‘bjj self defense’ thread, your mind is already made up. so why ask?
Trying to pretend that BJJ is more than just ground fighting (which is the point of this thread) is fooling youir self.
you really must be fooling yourself now if you arguing for both sides
Even though BJJ concentrates on ground fighting, I don’t think it’s fair to label the art as a ‘one-trick pony’. There are many elements to the ground fighting itself that deny that.
I am just tired of BJJ guys trying to run down anything thats not ground fighting!!
I fully accept that ground fighting is an important part of self defense training but it is not the be all and end all!! Also i stand by my statment that if ground fighting is all you can do (and if it is 90% of your training then that will be true) you are going to get hurt on the street.
I refer you to the thread i created when i saw a street fight.
The guy who in the end got beat up quite badly was doing ok till it went to the ground. Once on the ground he got beaten by the guy he was fightings friend almost imediatly. But variouse ground fighting exponents who frequent this site couldnt see that and stated that they could have handled it just fine standing up.
But is BJJ good at stand up? Is it as good as Kung Fu at stand up (i mean real kung fu not wushu dancing)?
And what is the point spending most of your training time doing somthing that is going to get you hurt?
Ok i accept that some fights will go to the ground but if you train to take every oponent to the ground then that is what you will do in a street fight … and get pounded by the guys friends.
My theory is that BJJ is a very good sport. A good sport desighned to take down and beat one oponent…past this it looks kind of limited.
Just looking from the outside in, I would have a little bit of a problem dedicating myself to something that was 90% ground fighting. They have some really good stuff, but it is what it is. Useful yes. Actually more fun than stand up. I think they will be a LOT more skilled on the ground than in punching, and they say that on the street they seek to not go to the ground?
Your body under stress will do what it does. I think a BJJ guy might go for a quick takedown on the street by autopilot if the guys flowed into his techniques smoothly. Remember, on the street it happens very quickly and stressfuly, much much more so than in sparring or even a NHB type event. That is why your reactions are just that. No time to think a lot about your techniques. It needs to flow to work, and your body flows into what it knows naturally.
If the bjj guy can take down his streetfight attacker without going to the pavement himself, I don’t see any problem. As far as I can tell, once you’ve taken a guy down without falling on top of him, that fight is over, for all intents and purposes. Time to skedaddle!
“I am just tired of BJJ guys trying to run down anything thats not ground fighting!!”
You’re living in the past bro. Maybe that’s the way a lot of fools who bought into Rorion Gracie’s propaganda felt back when bjj was first becoming popular, but it definitely ain’t the case anymore. Any serious bjj fighter nowadays knows that if he wants to be any good, then he’s gonna have to be well rounded.
In modern MMA competition a guy who is competent only in bjj will have a lot of trouble. Wrestlers are a pain in the a$$ because they are more powerful and explosive grapplers. A pure bjj guy isn’t going to have much of a chance to acquire or maintain dominant position against the wrestler, and so more often then not, the bjj guys end up on their backs working the guard. The problem is that wrestlers have learned how to pass the guard pretty effectively and defend against submissions. A powerful striker with good grappling knowledge and ground defense will also be a world of trouble for a bjj fighter.
Bjj is still an integral component in the MMA world, but it has been shown that bjj must adapt and compensate for its weaknesses just like any other style. At the end of the day, the purist is the man who’s gonna lose, no matter what style he is.
I played with a JJ guy this weekend actually (not BJJ).
At first I thought he was a Tai Boxer because he was taking a similiar hand position (trap). He dared me to attack thinking I must have been a kook but I’ve seen the trap before. When I struck his forearm he committed both arms to trying to wrestle that hand. The firtst time I got a free hit.
When he wanted to “show” me what he would do he grabbed my right arm with both hands and began to twist. Not bad, but if one knows ba gua peach palm they pressure came right off the arm. Meanwhile he tottaly discounted my left.
Over and over he committed to “getting me”, but all the while he had no control. I could have beaten silly with the left, freeing the right for a follow up and so on.
It was fun. I can’t judge JJ by this guy though because frankly I don’t think he’s that good, but supposedly he’s a pretty good street fighter – but isn’t everybody. 
I still haven’t the pleasure of mixing it up heavy with a BJJ. This JJ guy never tried to shoot. But his hands were better then I expected for not having “sticky” hands. He was able to redirect and cling to my striking arm, but couldn’t strike at the same time. And he needed two to handle one.
I was at a Rickson Gracie seminar a few months ago. As we all gathered together to listen to him speak he asked us for some audience participation.
“How many of you are a black belt in another art? Please stand up.”
More than 3/4 of the class stood up and we each fired off our prior style.
“Well I guess that ruins the myth that jiu-jitsu (brazillian) guys can’t fight with their hands and feet!”
I’ve never attended a bjj class that didn’t train at least 2 self defense techniques and 2 takedowns per class.
JJ and BJJ are nothing alike.
I´ve had all the same idea that you do,Liokault.
BUT I´ve been told they emphasize tons of other stuff too,even weapon defenses…
Still it seems though,that ground crumbling is the main thing,or maybe it is just always thrown against one´s face when it comes to that art.
On the other hand Liokault, if our pounded fellow knew some BJJ, he might have been able to get up faster and not get pounded.
And if he DID know BJJ then he was just stupid in a self-defense situation, which transcends stylistic boundaries.
May be he could have gotten up faster if he had some BJJ but as he was taken out in the first second of going down it would not have made much differance.
Anyway you are missing my point…What if he didnt want to go down would BJJ have to offer him and how much training for stand up would he have done?
That first second changes a lot with a little knowledge. You know that.
Secondly, BJJ can teach you how to stay on your feet. Depends on the instructor. Most of my classmates can’t handle my prior wrestling experience on the feet, but they are able to handle each other–and manhandle newbies. The guys with Judo and wrestling experience are typically much harder to train against, standing.
But mostly, it’s a groundfighting system shrug. Sometimes that’s a good thing… sometimes, it’s not. It’s all situationally dependent.
‘’ But mostly, it’s a groundfighting system shrug. Sometimes that’s a good thing… sometimes, it’s not. It’s all situationally dependent. ‘’
Logic like that and knowing our limits can save lifes as much and sometimes more than a few fast learned self-defense tricks.
The key is to use your tools ,not the other guy’s. Nothing can prevent or beat everything.(IMHO)
BJJ has a tool that will help in any street fight. It is a SPECIALIZE discipline however…it’s GROUND FIGHTING with wrestling and judo type takedowns! Many BJJ guys CROSSTRAIN…those that do not or claim that it’s the BEST OF THE BEST…everyone HERE should laugh at them! Many BJJ skools advocate BOXING or THAI BOXING as part of their program! I find SAN SHOU as hella realistic for REAL FIGHTING. Either way any martial artists should have a stragedy for dealing with multiple attackers and one on one scenarios! There should be a PLAN after u learn some of the tools…I think most MARTIAL ARTIST have NO STRAGEDY when it comes to real fighting…no what if???
EvolutionFist - Hey man. Whaddya mean by the peach palm? Monkey holding peaches?
“I am just tired of BJJ guys trying to run down anything thats not ground fighting!!”
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Why do you let it bother you?
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Why do you generalize it as all of them?
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Most BJJ guys crosstrain and realize the value a good ground game can have. That’s why most of them crosstrain now.
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your grappling is stand up, like chin na, no? so if you do go to the ground, what do you know that will help you get up efficiently?
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alot of BJJ incorporates judo throws, which helps in the clinch, and there has been a clinch involved in almost every fight I’ve seen. so in that sense, yes, there is stand up.
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BJJ is designed to work when you are surprised or in a seemingly disadvantaged position
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there is no need to pull punches as there is in striking. if I throw you, you’re thrown. if I choke you, you are unconscious. That alone adds that realism that you can’t quite get from learning eye gouges and dim mak.
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by knowing how to go to the ground, you also know how to stay standing.
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by knowing what to do on the ground, you know how to get up.
The majority of the BJJ schools around me - including the one I attend - offer a stand-up style as well as BJJ. At my school it’s shootfighting, others offer Muay Thai or boxing or kick-boxing etc.
This point has already been made in one form or another by previous posters, but I’m going to make it again as it seems that it has yet to register with many of those out there yelling about the limitations of BJJ.
All styles have their limitations. There is no ONE perfect, all around, appropriate in every situation, end all - be all, superior martial art. (If you know of one, please tell me, I’d like to check it out).
Most BJJ players understand this too. That’s why it is so common to see them cross-training in a stand-up style like Muay Thai, JKD, Boxing, etc.
Everyone thinks their style is the best, or at least better than the next guys’. Its almost like a discussion on religion.