Hehe, not style Vs. style but what are the main differences between JJ/BJJ and Judo. I’ve heard that the Gracies actualy leanred Judo from the start so BJJ is really hybrid Judo.
BJJ focusses on the newaza (ground techniques) of Judo.
Judo focusses on the tachi-waza (throws).
Because of this, a bjj’er is generally better than Judoka on the ground and a Judoka is generally better than a bjj’er while standing.
Ford,
You are forgetting about Kosen Judo.
No he’s not. It’s just so rare there’s almost no point in discussing it.
I’d also point out that it’s a format, not a style, per se, and I also don’t know what submissions are legal…
CHIGAU!!!
MP,
Kosen is NOT rare. (Just do a search on google and see how many hit you get for such a RARE art.)It is actually growing as an art as more pple are want to do newaza and don’t want the BJJ propoganda BS.
And KOSEN is considered a difference STYLE of judo developed from the orthodock Kodokan.
Plenty of clubs out there, I agree. Compared to Olympic/Kodokan style clubs? Not that many. I can’t think of a single club in the DC area that is Kosen, I can think of three olympic style ones. The only Kosen guy I know did it in Japan. Nice fellow. Good guard passing skills.
Bottom line is that I’m willing to bet 90% of the clubs out there are Olympic/Kodokan.
You want to define Kosen as a style, be my guest. It originated when (as I understand it) certain colleges refused to change their competition format to match the Kodokan at some past point in Judo history, and Kosen was born. That’s the way the Kosen guy I know outlined it anyhoo.
That makes it more like, say, Folkstyle and Freestyle wrestling, than the difference between say, Sambo and Judo.
MP,
Like alot of things the US is just catching on. There are plenty of Kosen clubs on this side of the water. And Kosen is big in Japan. But I mostly stuck to Kodokan when I was there. Kodokan was the first org of Judo so of course most of the clubs would be Kodokan clubs. And Kosen IS recongnized at a STYLE not me defining it but just how it is.
Exert:
In 1914, the All Japan Special High School championships were started at Kyoto Imperial University. These championships emphasized the trend toward newaza or grappling techniques, and the schools that participated became so proficient at this approach that they earned for it the name “Kosen Judo” or grappling Judo. This form of Judo was becoming so predominant that by 1925 Kano began to see throwing techniques as disappearing from the syllabus of effective Judo skills. Judo rules were changed to specifically require that all techniques had to begin from a tachi waza or standing throwing technique, and that further, if a competitor pulled his opponent down without such an effort, the opponent would be declared the automatic winner. However, Kano understood the proficiency of Kosen Judo, and saw a need for specialists to be encouraged in its development, and so the Seven Universities Tournament, which continues in Japan to this day, has been exempt from this 1925 Kodokan rule change. The Kosen Judo students represented an elite, and it was considered shameful to tap or declare maitta, surrender. A choke or an armbar would have to continue to its inevitable conclusion. (3) Those modern derivatives of Judo, Gracie Ju Jitsu and Sambo, show the effect of both this technical approach and attitude, which is not remarkable since the founding instructors of both styles learned Judo during this pre-1925 period.
P.S.
There’s propaganda in any art. I bear you no animosity and quite frankly find your posts on the various boards informative and useful. On the other hand, I don’t really understand your need to single out BJJ as having “propaganda BS,” when that’s a function of people and not a style.
Every art teaches you how to “Defeat larger, stronger opponents, use their force against them, and protect yourself from 12 ft tall mutant attackers with 5 limbs!” 
I could do without the “Billboard Tough Guys,” who look like walking advertisements, wear fight gear like it’s regular clothing, and think a shaved head, a goatee, and a couple of BJJ tats make them tough–even as “Joe White Belt!”
On the other hand, other arts could do without the Mullets and the fat guys screaming when they break boards
It’s all good…
I’ll refrain from discussing Kosen Judo since the point is a bit ridiculous.
I see your point about Kosen. I still find it more analogous to free vs folk, but that’s pretty much just semantics. There is something called Kosen out there that is more heavily groundwork oriented–that, we’ll both agree with.
I certainly did look at it from a U.S.-centric viewpoint, but given my geographic location, I think that’s understandable.
Cipher is in Indiana, I might point out. He might as well go in search of Looed Chicken’s Feet or Hot and Spicy tripe at the local Dim Sum house…
Of course, that doesn’t really change anything.
don’t really understand your need to single out BJJ as having “propaganda BS,” when that’s a function of people and not a style.
I know the propaganda comes from the pple not the STYLE but hell you got to start somewhere!!!
BTW I don’t single out BJJ. It is just one of my favorite targets. Last week I was ****ing of a bunch of Koga Ninjas who threatend to show me what a REAL ninja cult can do!!!:eek:
Oh, I dunno. You could start with Rorian trying to sue everybody in his family who used the name “gracie” in their advertisements
Or we start the “pure water argument…” which sounds a lot like the stupid lineage wars, come to think of it.
So is it common for a Judo place to train both newaza and tachi-waza?
So what do you guys think about this ? It is one of two Judo places around were I live. I don’t really know much about it but I am planning on swinging by in one day in the next few weeks. The main teacher there looks like is has some pretty good experience. Anyone know John Wortley? It sounds really familiar to me but I can’t place were I heard it from. Thanks for the info.
Yes. Even in Olympic/Kodokan Judo, you will be exposed to various chokes, pins and locks. While you will probably not be as good at groundwork as somebody who’s spent a similar amount of time in BJJ, you will have a working knowledge of matwork.
Basically every single style of judo should be the same,there are no actual differences in application.No matter where you go…
Unlike in karate as an example.
Just my opinion based on the claims of practitioners.
there will be differences from school to school as each will have preferences. My club loves matwork, so we do a lot of it. many clubs spend minimal time on groundwork, and there are differences in application. people will change grips, stepping, etc. to make the throw more comfortable to them.
it’s a format, not a style, per se,
This sums up the thread.
My judo club divides the time betwen standing throws and groundwork almost 50-50, depending on who is instructing the class. My club is a highly international club and we have players from Germany, Brazil, Poland, Japan, Italy, France. and many others who rotate in as they come into Washington D.C. for various reasons.
Groundwork randori (newaza) is identical to bjj in that it doesn’t stop until someone is submitted. Judo does not have joint locks on the legs. Since many judoka are cross trained in sambo and bjj these days if your partner agrees they can be permitted on individual circumstances.
Contrary to popular belief, judo does not neglect the ground game. Judoka think of it as the second axle to a car. without it the vehicle won’t go anywhere. A successful throw puts you in control and position for successful groundwork.
However in judo competition, the rules force players on the ground to be swift and furious or else they will be restarted from their feet.
BJJ is superior on the ground because they spend so much time training groundwork. It is probably safe to say that 3/4 of bjj techniques come from judo. BJJ players have twice the time and analysis of these techniques!
BJJ is an absorbing style. They take what they like and incorporate it into their art.
“Groundwork randori (newaza) is identical to bjj in that it doesn’t stop until someone is submitted.”
that’s another difference you will find in judo. not all clubs go for the submission. some go for pins and positional dominance.
“Judo does not have joint locks on the legs.”
There is one. you can’t use it in competition though. I can’t think of the name, but I think it’s listed on judo info - I’ll check.
It makes a lot of sense to me to be good at throwing the person and then good at finishing them off on the ground.
So any thoughts on www.iglou.com/toshi ?
I can see that a lot of it will depend on what the place foucuses on more. One may tend to throw more than doing groud work and one may do more ground work than throws. I would think that now days any Judo place would make sure to have good strong ground work training, but who knows.
What site is the authorita on Judo?
Thanks again for the info.