competing against a black belt in Judo. Wasn’t sure if you all had seen this or not. its weird to see him so young, thin and with such a full head of hair.
[QUOTE=BruceSteveRoy;823789]competing against a black belt in Judo. Wasn’t sure if you all had seen this or not. its weird to see him so young, thin and with such a full head of hair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNgJPsUb1A[/QUOTE]
Take anyone out of their element and they will get beat and that was what BJ did, he didn’t go for the ippon which iw what 99% of the judo players would go for.
Any clips of him taking on a Pro or Amateur Boxer or MT fighter?
[QUOTE=BruceSteveRoy;823789]competing against a black belt in Judo. Wasn’t sure if you all had seen this or not. its weird to see him so young, thin and with such a full head of hair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNgJPsUb1A[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Cqkgdu9zs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkwCwFEPpQM&feature=related
you can win a match and still loose.
[QUOTE=monji112000;823806]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Cqkgdu9zs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkwCwFEPpQM&feature=related
you can win a match and still loose.[/QUOTE]
Helio Vs Kimura…Yes kimura went easy on him and yes Kimura won and yes the Gracies tried to spin it.
So ?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;823790]Take anyone out of their element and they will get beat and that was what BJ did, he didn’t go for the ippon which iw what 99% of the judo players would go for.
Any clips of him taking on a Pro or Amateur Boxer or MT fighter?[/QUOTE]
I agree with what you are saying. But you have to admit it takes pretty big huevos to go into any grappling tournament as a white belt and go against a black belt.
For the record i wasn’t posting this to say one is better than the other. I don’t think one is. i just thought it was a neat video.
[QUOTE=BruceSteveRoy;823815]I agree with what you are saying. But you have to admit it takes pretty big huevos to go into any grappling tournament as a white belt and go against a black belt.
For the record i wasn’t posting this to say one is better than the other. I don’t think one is. i just thought it was a neat video.[/QUOTE]
Good size huevos, yes.
Smarts too, to pick the correct “sport”.
to me he just looks like a Judoka who specializes in Newaza. There’s really not that much difference between the two arts. You see a lot more Newaza than you used to in Judo tourneys now, but, for historical reference: http://youtube.com/watch?v=TUuANBmoj4o
I have some excellent footage of Mifune doing groundwork including leglocks that I don’t see anywhere on the web (considering it was a VHS recording of an 8mm news reel). I’ll convert it for youtube and I’ll let you know when I post it.
Please do! Mifune was the shnizel back in the day! Would have been awesome to train with him!
Jake
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;823813]Helio Vs Kimura…Yes kimura went easy on him and yes Kimura won and yes the Gracies tried to spin it.
So ?[/QUOTE]
You are missing the big picture I can name classic boxing fights also. The fact that you “win”, doesn’t mean you WIN. I can go to a point sparring match and knock the guy out. He “won”, but I didn’t loose. Anyone with half a brain can see that although Gracie lost the match, he won in the bigger picture. Everyone looses fights, how you lost, and what you take from the fight defines if you win or loose. Just go to any martial art school and ask them if they heard of the name gracie… then ask Kimura. They will probably say they never heard of Kimura or they will say its a BJJ technique.
Gracie lost the fight, but Gracie clearly won. Ali lost the fight but he clearly won. ect… ect…
I go to a Judo match and loose but tap the guy.. who won? depends on who you ask. its all relative, nothing is absolute. Facts are all relative. History isn’t honest, its whatever you say it is.
Just look at any conflict in the world. two (or more) groups claiming that history is one way or another. They all can’t be right… or can they?
[QUOTE=monji112000;823904]You are missing the big picture I can name classic boxing fights also. The fact that you “win”, doesn’t mean you WIN. I can go to a point sparring match and knock the guy out. He “won”, but I didn’t loose. Anyone with half a brain can see that although Gracie lost the match, he won in the bigger picture. Everyone looses fights, how you lost, and what you take from the fight defines if you win or loose. Just go to any martial art school and ask them if they heard of the name gracie… then ask Kimura. They will probably say they never heard of Kimura or they will say its a BJJ technique.
Gracie lost the fight, but Gracie clearly won. Ali lost the fight but he clearly won. ect… ect…
I go to a Judo match and loose but tap the guy.. who won? depends on who you ask.[/QUOTE]
The Gracies had a better marketing team.
Perhaps of Kimura had demolished him completely, leaving him battered and broken, things woudl have been different, but I doubt it, Helio was a nobody and Kimura a world champ and all that would have meant was that he got beat by the best judoka of that era.
GJJ would still have gone the same way.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;823906]The Gracies had a better marketing team.
Perhaps of Kimura had demolished him completely, leaving him battered and broken, things woudl have been different, but I doubt it, Helio was a nobody and Kimura a world champ and all that would have meant was that he got beat by the best judoka of that era.
GJJ would still have gone the same way.[/QUOTE]
Your missing the whole point. I doesn’t even matter who people believe won. Gracie evolved, even named the **** technique after Kimura. Gracie continued to evolve, and hist art has continued the evolution. Like it or not did Kimura change evolve Judo the way Gracie continued to do? What effect did the match have on him or his art? you see people all the time loose and still become better fighters becouse of the fight. GJJ continues to evolve, you can clearly see it in fact that techniques are added that were originally unused. Why is that Renzo has MT at his school? Why are guys training with sambo and other wrestling arts? I am not taking a stab at Kimura or Judo.. its just that I see Gracie coming away from the fight gaining much more than Kimura did. Thus continuing my point about how do you define winning, and its all relative. What were the stats on Kimura? what about Gracie? If I were to go into a Golden glove fight and hold my own.. yet loose.. I would personally consider it a major victory. 
Depends on where you live…
and what art you practice.
You say Kimura in Japan or at a Judo dojo, they definitely know who you’re talking about.
Gracie was very brave- seriously- to fight Kimura was insane. Kimura was the bomb- unfortunately he lived in a time without cable tv, pay per view, and the internet.
[QUOTE=monji112000;823912]Your missing the whole point. I doesn’t even matter who people believe won. Gracie evolved, even named the **** technique after Kimura. Gracie continued to evolve, and hist art has continued the evolution. Like it or not did Kimura change evolve Judo the way Gracie continued to do? What effect did the match have on him or his art? you see people all the time loose and still become better fighters becouse of the fight. GJJ continues to evolve, you can clearly see it in fact that techniques are added that were originally unused. Why is that Renzo has MT at his school? Why are guys training with sambo and other wrestling arts? I am not taking a stab at Kimura or Judo.. its just that I see Gracie coming away from the fight gaining much more than Kimura did. Thus continuing my point about how do you define winning, and its all relative. What were the stats on Kimura? what about Gracie? If I were to go into a Golden glove fight and hold my own.. yet loose.. I would personally consider it a major victory. :)[/QUOTE]
LOL !
I got your point from the beginning bro, its just subjective that’s all.
I understand that in Helio losing, it was a victory for GJJ and BJJ, far more than for Judo, even Kimura said it was a moral victory for Helio.
There is nothing in BJJ that doesn’t exist in Judo, simple fact is that competition judo is focused on the ippon at that time and still is, which Kimura got in the first 30 seconds or what not.
Top say that the Gracies became better fighters is irrelevant to the Kimura issue, they didn;t go on to become better judokas, nor did they challenge him again I think ( not sure).
Judo went its way because that was the way the kodokan oriented it, olympic judo being the goal.
As for defining winning, I like how you define, so doea Rorion, and his view of how Matt’s victory over royce was a victory for GJJ.
[QUOTE=MightyB;823914]and what art you practice.
You say Kimura in Japan or at a Judo dojo, they definitely know who you’re talking about.
Gracie was very brave- seriously- to fight Kimura was insane. Kimura was the bomb- unfortunately he lived in a time without cable tv, pay per view, and the internet.[/QUOTE]
go to a choy lay fut school and ask them if they know the name Gracie. Then ask them if they know a person named Kimura. at least 7 out of 10 will ether think Kimura is a (reverse)keylock or never heard of him. Its not about fame its about what the fame represents.
I am a Wing Chun person. I train with different styles and people. I have started to really enjoy the sport of wrestling(submission). I also enjoy soccer, football, rugby, hockey, tennis, basketball, MT, and many more.
What about you?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;823917]LOL !
I got your point from the beginning bro, its just subjective that’s all.
:D[/QUOTE]
yes everything is.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;823917]As for defining winning, I like how you define, so doea Rorion, and his view of how Matt’s victory over royce was a victory for GJJ.
…
There is nothing in BJJ that doesn’t exist in Judo:D[/QUOTE]
its not just my view its also the Gracie view. In reality the Gracies aren’t in control of BJJ anymore. Its become to influential that you can almost question what new significance the name Gracie has. I would never train at a Gracie academy. Well I would never say NEVER.. but I found it to be too closed minded and commercial. They seemed more interested in my credit card than why I was interested in training with them. I’m sure not every Gracie school is that way, but the reputation is there.
Its the same in computers, what relevance is IBM really. Outside of obscure locations, who buys a IBM anything. Yet “IBM” PC’s were the defacto not to long ago. You go into a BestBuy and ask for a IBM clone … LOL they won’t know what your talking about.
I can’t comment on if everything in the whole BJJ world exists in the whole Judo world.. I personally am not a big judo fan. I enjoy watching Greco and free style more. Maybe its the whole Kimono thing.. its not me. I would personally love to train with a Judo guy. I am sure he could show me allot. But no Gi for me plz.
I remember when BJJ was taking the credit for developing the triangle - sankaku-jime in Judo.
Kids…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;823917]
There is nothing in BJJ that doesn’t exist in Judo, simple fact is that competition judo is focused on the ippon at that time and still is, which Kimura got in the first 30 seconds or what not.
[/QUOTE]
When is the last time you saw a D’Arce choke, heel hook, calf crusher, twister or figure 4 footlock in Judo?
Every system develops its own particular things that may or may not later on be incorporated into other systems.
Here you go Jake
http://youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c
I have a lot more footage than this it just takes a lot of time to do the conversions. I’ll post some more soon.
- Pay attention to the end of this vid when he starts showing escapes. He shows a couple of leg attacks.
Audio’s Bad because it’s actually a recording of an 8mm projection- old school film for all you kids out there.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;823790]Take anyone out of their element and they will get beat and that was what BJ did, he didn’t go for the ippon which iw what 99% of the judo players would go for.
Any clips of him taking on a Pro or Amateur Boxer or MT fighter?[/QUOTE]
correct me if I’m wrong (I’ve only competed in one judo tourny) but can’t you win with neiwaza by tapout or points? so, it’s not like the judo guy didn’t know there were options other than the throw for ippon
seems like the big win of the ippon causes a narrowing of focus in most judokas that compete
Thanks Mighty B!! Very nice! He is one of the old school cats I would love to hang out with a chat with.
Cheers
Jake