Given the number of cross-training threads recently, I just thought of something that the cross-trainers might care to comment on.
I’ve always questioned the chi sau training when it came to application. I could never see it actually working (in the “ideal” way I guess) - sensitivity, trapping, etc. - when in the hubbub of an exchange with someone. My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a “standing” person has.
Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?
Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?
[QUOTE=CFT;951811]Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?[/QUOTE]
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on a lot of factors.
Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?
People generally move to grappling for one of two reasons:
They don’t know how to strike and/or are getting beaten in the striking exchange and move to grappling in hopes of stopping that.
Grappling is their preferred method of fighting and/or a tactical opportunity to grapple comes along.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951813]Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on a lot of factors.[/quote]Namely what kind of clinch and how aggressive you both are.
At least in the UK where there are no school wrestling programmes, the first is a WAY higher percentage for average scrubs on the street.
Moving from striking to grappling to ground is very natural, regardless of training. Even children often start punching eachother, grab eachother, go to the ground and usually the bully wins in a scrap.
[QUOTE=CFT;951811]Given the number of cross-training threads recently, I just thought of something that the cross-trainers might care to comment on.
I’ve always questioned the chi sau training when it came to application. I could never see it actually working (in the “ideal” way I guess) - sensitivity, trapping, etc. - when in the hubbub of an exchange with someone. My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a “standing” person has.
Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?
Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?[/QUOTE]
the time you have to react gets shorter as you get closer.
the whole point of chi sau and ‘sensitivity’ is to take the eyes out of the equation because you do not have time to assess with the eyes, process that information, decide what to do, etc.
it is believed, that it is much faster to simply react by reflex to what you feel–not emotionally of course but by physical touch. that is the goal.
[QUOTE=CFT;951811]
I’ve always questioned the chi sau training when it came to application. I could never see it actually working (in the “ideal” way I guess) - sensitivity, trapping, etc. - when in the hubbub of an exchange with someone. My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a “standing” person has.
[/QUOTE]
i wonder what your picture or definition of ideal is? imo, chi-sao simply allows you to hit the target. There is no trapping really (in the sense of those typical pictures of crossing the opponents arms); and the sensitivity kicks in as soon as contact of your body to your opponent’s - enough to tell you that you can hit or that you can’t.
for example, the jab can be a pretty useful weapon - think of what someone who trains it can do with it. now imagine what he can do with it if he’s got the sensitivity training.
The end game is the same, but the foundation to get there is inherently different.
Is there another reason why people move to clinch or the ground, other than maybe the opponent is not so well trained in it (if at all)?
Stopping an opponent with your fists can be a costly affair for them. If you don’t give them a severe enough concussion to knock them out, you risk breaking any number of bones in their face, their jaw, sternum, etc.
Grappling is a great method to stop someone without severely injuring them.
Remember the society we live in. We’re not fighting off people who genuinely want to murder us and our family, most of the time we fight. Usually its people who **** us off or we **** them off. Is it worth severely injuring them? What about the legal consequences? The medical bills and financial hardship they could incur?
Yeah, chances are they probably should’ve thought of that before they got into a fight with you. But you should understand where your opponent is coming from, as well. We’re all inconsiderate *******s at one time or another, the only difference is those inconsiderate *******s we mess up, probably don’t have the training we do. And as such, we have a responsibility to it as well.
Unless you ( or your opponent) can incapacitate with minimal strikes, any fight will follow the “typical” pattern of:
Strike - Clinch- throw/trip/fall- ground fighting.
Grappling is far more natural to most people and probably more effective for most people too.
Striking in a way that makes strikes the most effective tends to be rather “unnatural”, most people just swing away naturally, whereas grappling, for the most part, is something more natural and easy to pick up for the majority of people.
Also, striking is a tad more “fast paced” than grappling and very few people like getting hit.
guy always tried or grabbed my wrists when fighting for control
guys grapple for the control factor
chi-sao isnt for developing grappling ideas ;)…its further developing the little idea from SLT
I dont see grappling in SLT.
make a strike line with your wrists …strike either side along the line wrists xing the line , elbow touching before striking out…the rest is to develop the ideas ability to function at any angle of the fight STRIKING.
Bil Gee teaches methods to regain grabbed/grappled writs and arms, that stopped your flowing attack…
MAny times I have had my wrists grabbed in fights…guys will come forwards with a lead ‘grabbing’ hand…for the big right following …or not as the case may be
I did wrestling in school in USA, as well as judo…always came in handy when I sparred and went down…in fighting I always avoid the ground or grappling due to the uneven
numbers 3 v me or even 2 v me…one guy can always be kicking you in the head=dead, or stomping on your neck. As I was also growing up and going to school in the UK I noticed the preference for group/gang fighting to include surrounding a guy who was simply ‘run down’ by another gang and kicked mercilessly…so even running isnt a guarantee…knowing how to grapple means little when this happens…knowing to regain your feet works well…
its instinctive to grab and control using wrists or hands to chase, VT teaches us to use the arms angles [forearms] to be a second set of hands ‘just’ behind the fists of the same arm
alignment and training makes it work…not to stick but to strike while ‘sliding’ in and out along lines…
Chi Sao is not a fighting stratagy. Never was. It is a simple drill where 2 people can work together in training their pary and strike techniques through routine redundance. It can be helpful training when you are close in and sort of grappling. Most people have to have room to swing at you, but a WC fighter can hit you while rubbing bellies with you. If he can control your arms while striking you so much the better for him. Today people think MMA ring when they talk fighting. Going to ground is an attempt to use wrestling or jujitsu to submit a person. Submission is only in sport fighting. You would submit someone in a parking lot fight and once on his feet he would start fighting all over again. Then again maybe someone else will get involved and kick at your head while you roll with his friend. The ground is the very last place you want to be in a serious street fight. More than titles and bragging rights are involved there. I understand that someone might attempt to take you down, and it is so that he can get help from friends while you are down there probably. In this case you need to make every attempt to prevent that happening. At all costs. If he is alone he would probably be as loath to being taken down as you would be.
There is a world of difference between a fight in a back parking lot and a fight in a ring under controlled conditions, where a referee can pull him off you when he chokes you blue.
Picking up on my last post - the wing chun “short range power” and the wing chun uses “quick, multiple blast punches” ideas, if you will, need to be re-examined. In a real encounter, or a match of some sort wherein full (or close to full) power punches and strikes are being used - and clinch and ground are also part of the mix, and the adrenalin is going…
just how important is it to learn grappling/wrestling? As a wing chun fighter?
Because as Paul said, unless you can incapacitate with minimal strikes, the odds are that this fight/match is probably going to some sort of clinch/ground.
If you “live” in a phone booth like WC fighters are trained to do, clinch grappling, at the very least, is a must to know.
Lets be honest here, if you like to be on the inside where an opponent can grab you with BOTH hands, the chances of grappling are close to 100% and the chances of going to the ground almost as much.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;952408]If you “live” in a phone booth like WC fighters are trained to do, clinch grappling, at the very least, is a must to know.
Lets be honest here, if you like to be on the inside where an opponent can grab you with BOTH hands, the chances of grappling are close to 100% and the chances of going to the ground almost as much.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CFT;951811]
My main gripe is the speed at which a striking exchange takes place coupled to the mobility that a “standing” person has.
Which brings me to my point - does the timeframe of an exchange get longer (i.e. you get more time to react/act) as you move to clinch, grappling, ground, etc?
[/QUOTE]
Yes with an important proviso: You have to know what to do in those positions. Skilled or experienced people understand the principles of position and posture so keep themselves where they have more time to react and act.
Actually the same applies to a striking exchange even though it may seem faster and more mobile. The knowledgeable person doesn’t expose themselves to be struck easily. Then they have the time to react and act.
It’s an important idea in any form of fighting and there are many ways to skin the cat. Whatever the style, it’s the difference between just swinging at each other and actually using your brains.
In street fighting. Lets say we are somewhere alone. No friends to back this guy up. An he is extremly fast with his punches or kicks. I may use ground fighting to trap him. What I mean is if I am lot stronger phyiscally I would try get him the ground so I could break his arm or leg (Not submit him). If I gain the dominant posistion I will attempt to trap or hold him down by crossing on of his hands over his throat while I punch him with my free hand.
But a fight is unpredictable Just because someone trains ground tactics doesn’t always mean they will work the way they do in class. Sparring is totally different than sparring. An when sparring or Sprawling someone from the same style doesn’t always prepare you for the unexpected on the street!
A unskilled street fighter may be alot stronger or too big to take to ground. So you may want to stay on your feet your self.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;952379]Chi Sao is not a fighting stratagy. Never was. It is a simple drill where 2 people can work together in training their pary and strike techniques through routine redundance. It can be helpful training when you are close in and sort of grappling. Most people have to have room to swing at you, but a WC fighter can hit you while rubbing bellies with you. If he can control your arms while striking you so much the better for him. Today people think MMA ring when they talk fighting. Going to ground is an attempt to use wrestling or jujitsu to submit a person. Submission is only in sport fighting. You would submit someone in a parking lot fight and once on his feet he would start fighting all over again. Then again maybe someone else will get involved and kick at your head while you roll with his friend. The ground is the very last place you want to be in a serious street fight. More than titles and bragging rights are involved there. I understand that someone might attempt to take you down, and it is so that he can get help from friends while you are down there probably. In this case you need to make every attempt to prevent that happening. At all costs. If he is alone he would probably be as loath to being taken down as you would be.
There is a world of difference between a fight in a back parking lot and a fight in a ring under controlled conditions, where a referee can pull him off you when he chokes you blue.[/QUOTE]
This is not written in stone, but in most cases if someone is looking to fight it is because he has the notion that he can whip you. Either he is larger than you or he feels he has some fighting skill that you don’t have. Seldom does one simply approach and start some crap with you. They usually eye you and size you up and sometimes even say little things to see what kind of response they get out of you. They don’t usually want to start something with someone that they think might give them a good fight. They look for victim types. Trapping hands and arms would classify as grappling in my opinion, and it would give you some advantage to train these moves and techniques. Nothing works all the time, but things you practice tend to work more often. It can only give you some advantage if it does work.
Now, this might be contrary to what is popularly believed, but you do not have to go to the ground to fight a grappling fight. When trapping a hand or arm you can apply your basic wrist and arm locks and bars to take a man down while standing flat on both feet. In fact, it seems to be a great deal easier to do while standing.
Ring fighting consists of pounding and kicking, then grabbing a leg and taking a man down and straddle him. Only certain large joints can be attacked. Rules to fight by you know. In a street fight you have well over a hundred wrist locks and arm bar techniques to work with. All these fighting techniques are designed that you can use them against a larger and stronger person.
it’s a no-brainer, if i/you train WCK, you want to do the darnest to stay on your feet. The last thing you want to think about is to go to the ground/grapple. No matter your opponent’s size (big, skinny, tall, short, fast, slow) - your bread and butter (given that you’re following this thread) is your WCK…so make sure that’s at 100%.
if it goes to the ground or even grappling…we’re pretty much screwed. and let’s hope our opponent isn’t good at it either.
others may elect to learn ground fighting, wrestling etc. that’s fine too. All a matter of how you want to spread your chips…
