Why do standing locks not work?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Er, why do standing locks not work?

A lot of sporty types say standing locks are very low percentage techniques. I haven’t fought in a sport yet, so I’m interested in why this should be…

I’ve used locks from aiki in all speeds and levels of contact sparring in karate and kungfu… successfully!!! :eek:

By successfully, I don’t mean I’ve snapped anything off, just that it’s destroyed someone’s body structure enough to then stick some serious striking damage on them or to lead into a throw. Occasionally it’s wound up dropping them like a sack of potatoes.

I also have partners in aiki who’ve used locks very effectively in a variety of street situations…

so…

why do standing locks not work?

Just asking…! Especially those with ring experience, or who practise chinna or locking arts…

2

" By successfully, I don’t mean I’ve snapped anything off, just that it’s destroyed someone’s body structure enough to then stick some serious striking damage on them or to lead into a throw. Occasionally it’s wound up dropping them like a sack of potatoes."

You’ve answered your own question. Most people think a standing lock is just that, a standing lock, with no other purpose. They don’t realize its a transition. They think its an end unto itself.

3

I kind of agree with SifuAbel,you ask why they won´t work and then simulatenously display some key points to why they do work.
:slight_smile:

There´s more to it,and btw,ring is…er ring.

4

That was kind of my point Abel, thanks for reiterating it.

Former: Obviously I believe they do work especially in real situations, that’s why I’m asking the question especially of ring fighters…!!! I am well aware of some of the differences between ring, kwoon and street… that’s why I was making the distinction…:rolleyes:

What’s the more to it then, Former!? And anyone else, especially those with more ring experience than me, especially those who believe they are very low percentage…!

5

You won´t probably be receiving much enlightening information from those who already made up their minds of why they don´t work.
Reasons to dis and dump them would most likely include lack of speed and complexity of technique compared to a straight blast.
Reasons to keep and give would then include possibility to:
-Take control and keep it without major harm.
-Move to a position of advantage while positioning the opponent to a disadvantage.
-Completely or relatively limit opponent´s mobility to either reach out with finishing attacks or just control or take it to the end with the selected technique.
-Alternative way to defend while other ways either fail or become less justified.

BTW,I wonder if pinning counts?
Another method on it´s own if very similar to jointlocking.

Also read this post.
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17342

And as you know,it´s another tool in the box.

6

standing locks…the reason is that they don’t have the hand techniques to set up for them and they don’t have the base to keep them standing.

Most locks are not standing, they get the opponent moving in a certain way. They can be pinned and locked on the ground. Some force them upwards against gravity, but unless you are gonna snap it you might as well sweep them quickly onto their head and maintain the tension in the joint as you switch to another lock.

7

If you are looking to finish with a standing lock, against a trained opponent, there are too many degrees of freedom of movement for you to isolate and overwhelm.

If you are looking to use it as a transition to something else against a trained opponent, be my guest. I don’t see anything inherently “wrong,” with that, not that my opinion matters much. I happen not to like them much, but if you train and like them shrug. I feel there are more useful ways of breaking structure, but to each their own.

Castlevania–this is one instance where “the ring is not the street,” REALLY doesn’t hold water. A standing joint lock isn’t going to be any more or less effective because of venue. Perhaps the quality of your opponent might change, but then it’s an issue that affects everything across the board.

8

“Castlevania–this is one instance where “the ring is not the street,” REALLY doesn’t hold water. A standing joint lock isn’t going to be any more or less effective because of venue. Perhaps the quality of your opponent might change, but then it’s an issue that affects everything across the board”

Don´t know about the ring but as far as I see it when you are on the ring,you are there to score points and look good,basically,to reach a position of dominance.
On the street your opponent is less likely to be a skilled “fighter” even though in some cases,he may be doing it for a living too… :confused:
If you are to use such,you´re better be fast and unpredictable.Those are good points.
I think someone said it pretty well that “this groundfighting whoopla has gone too far”,that is for groundfighting of course but now if we were to look at jointlocks as secondary things,which actually are good when used properly we were to be falling to the same hole of thinking trough this very one dimension which has surrounded some discussions concerning certain areas before (-as to how things will happen)
That was a bit of a rambling course from me,hard to say if I´ll get the point across but that is where my verbal skills run short for now.
:slight_smile:

I can see where you are going though,respectfully speaking.

BTW,to me jointlocks are mostly standing,generally.
When you lock someone up on the ground there is a lot of leverage and preferred positioning over your opponent which to me translates to pinning but the line is thin in various cases.

9

when sakuraba fought henzo didnt he apply a standing “kimura” and ended up using it to off balance henzo and obtain superior postition. He ended up finishing the kimura on the ground, but it worked standing up in some context.

10

Why would you want a standing lock? The reason for a lock is to either control someone or break something. If I’m a cop and have backup and reason to move someone then they’re OK. In a self defense situation where I could suffer sufficient harm I don’t want to be stuck with my opponent in a lock especially on his feet. At the very least I want him down preferably trying to find his next breath.
Also it’s hard to catch the hand of a good puncher.

But I agree with both Abel and Merry, nothing wrong with them as a transition to something else

11

why a standing lock??? think about it…so you can manipulate him and make him go where you want to.

Let me tell you a story about why I joined kung fu. Max was a big guy and he was coming out of a kung fu school with his friend. The cholos made fun of them and they tried to leave and then the punks started punching at them. Max got the biggest guy in a double chicken wing and ran full speed towards a wall. The guy tried to dive, but Max arched his back up to keep him going.

Max ran him down a decline to the corner of a building and released him into the brick as max ran past both man and building.

That was one of the single coolest things I have ever seen in my life.

Max (who was a good father and nice to all the kids and community and an upstanding citizen) also put a man’s head into a jukebox for repeatedly grabbing his hot wife’s ass.

He locke his arm and grabbed his hair and again served it up with a standing joint lock

streetfighting isn’t sport

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"Max (who was a good father and nice to all the kids and community and an upstanding citizen) also put a man’s head into a jukebox for repeatedly grabbing his hot wife’s ass.
"

:rolleyes:

If I may still have something to say,I´d like to point out that a standing jointlock does not go this way:
“OK,now I grab his arm and apply pressure on this precious joint,this is gonna be uncomfortable…”
There remains the danger of getting kicked in the groin and punched in the face repeatedly.
In a standing jointlock,you will be standing securely but your opponent will be either in considerable pain or at least mechanically disabled,often both.
While you have a grin on your face,your opponent will be on his toes only,half dragged to the ground or twisted into an agonizing position.Therefore it is up to you if you dislocate bones/break joints or keep it there to finish with something alternative unless it is not necessary.
It is necessary for opponent´s balance to be broken in a way or another so it is hard for him to respond.
This is all theory for sure but,to sum things up.

13

Personally, I’m not a big fan of locks, one way or the other. I just like the flow of striking. Of course, locks are good for some stuff, though definately hard to apply (for me – my master seems to have no trouble pulling them out of any conceivable position and taking me into the most inappropiate of directions). Groundfighting is another monster entirely, but not the focus of this thread.

If I pull a standing lock, I’m not going to stand there idle with it. If I get it, you’re going down into the mud so I can stomp your neck. Those locks are for controlling your opponent and his center, taking him into whatever way feels good : maybe into my fist, knee, head, into the brick wall or just the good ol’ the ground. I don’t view them as submissions, just stuff that happens. They’re also great for simultaneous defense. Control one arm and you control the opponent’s center with it, and so you don’t have worry about the other arm striking you.

So, yes, just like many have pointed out, I feel they’re transitional stuff. My approach to this stuff is Bajiquan and Chen Taijiquan based obviously. So, heck, everything is transitional before my opponent is crying for mercy and ****ing his pants or I’m a bloody smear on the pavement. Change, defend/strike (in one movement), change, defend/strike, change, defend/strike, change, knocked out. Strikes, throws and qinna happens depending on what’s available, resting on each other. Good stuff. :wink: Apply liberally to sporting environment. I don’t personally see that much difference between a sport environment and the street – some techniques may change, but you don’t win with techniques, you win with kungfu.

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some techniques may change, but you don’t win with techniques, you win with kungfu.

Amen!

Mantis108

15

Side note for anybody who cares–I doubt you’ll control anybody with an ounce of grappling experience long enough to use a standing jointlock even to transition to something else.

That said:

Apply the technique from behind, make sure your grip is secure, keep one leg between your opponents

Better not lose your grip or I’m going to break your leg for you.

16

:rolleyes:

isnt that why we learn how to control the body (take their balance/distract/and take their centre) and adapt to another technique if something doesnt work? dont grapplers manage to do that with other grapplers? lol countering counters can be fun :smiley:

dawood

17

Uh.Does this mean grappling is not no good then? After all this grapple this/that discussions.lol
:smiley:

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Originally posted by Former castleva
Uh.Does this mean grappling is not no good then? After all this grapple this/that discussions.lol
:smiley:

Here’s the difference - when I apply my lock, you are on the ground and are immobile - I have control of you. It’s also easier to apply eye gouges from the ground.

19

Mobility.
Balance.
Structure.

Keep these things in mind. Also, Expierence.

Locking joints on the ground is easier (see above) finishing the fight or actually breaking things are easier on the ground (see above).

Does that mean that joint locks dont “work” standing, no. Rarely will you be able to attain any sort of ‘barganing’ position with both people still standing, too many ‘options’ available for the unlucky person, and too much stuff to monitor consistently for the lucky person.

If you are in a dominant position, you have more control over your own, and your opponents mobility, balance, and structure. You have probably also hurt the other guy while getting your dominant posture.

If your opponent is standing, then he still has his balance, and potential for mobility, and if anything, he has a very small semblence of structure, and if he is resisting, then probably more then you think. I prefer my opponents on the ground, not necessarily with me down there with them.

Being able to grapple, and being able to avoid being grappled, are the same inherent skill (knowledge and expierence of grappling.)

Im not saying that standing jointlocks are useless, or that knowledge of how to move and lever the body around and works etc is not useful in a fight. Detach your sorts of knowledge (laws of motion, the body, grappling, jab) from specific ranges of fighting.

20

I think standing locks can work, but…

I feel about the the same way I do about pressure points - chances are that a newbie will not be able to use them effectively. Through practice over the years, maybe, but not right off. when fighting, you want to keep it simple and stick to what you know you can pull off.