“Here’s the difference - when I apply my lock, you are on the ground and are immobile - I have control of you. It’s also easier to apply eye gouges from the ground.”
Most of jointlocking to me,translates to standing but that´s just me.
I think all said about control,mobility etc. has already been said but of course it is good to refresh one´s memory.
Fingerlocks are easy to learn and are very difficult to escape from without compromising your joint (giving the break) or your posture (giving the takedown).
yeah, but you have to actually get the finger…
Guohen,
Actually, I want you moving forward. If you lose your grip and have your leg between mine, I’ll go for a rolling kneebar 
A bit esoteric, I know. I suspect that it’s not exactly “common” knowledge.
In the ring I would say that it would be unlikely to snag a standing lock. I’m not talking about catching punches out of the air, as I know that is low percentage. (Read that again before anybody flips out and has Royce choke me) In the street, a lot of the fights I have seen started with a grab or included a grab during melee. Now I use the term “grab”, because I’m not talking about your opponent securing a clinch, chin na, traditional judo randori grip, etc or any other real planned out technique. I’m talking about the guy who grabs you to hold you still while he pounds tha sh1t out of you. He is not disrupting your balance (if you are dealing with the striking hand appropriately) and he is not thinking about that hand on your jacket. You freeze your hand on my clothes, and I know where all five of your fingers are on that hand without even looking. If your job requires arresting skills, it is imperative that you be able to find these locks in a fight even if you need to get sloppy.
I’ve seen plenty of bouncers and cops use them in the real world; therefore they work.
If I heard an octagon door slam shut behind me and looked across the ring to see Igor Vovchanchyn I would not be saying, “Yeah, this muthafuggahz finger is mine. Time to bring the pain!” I’d sh1t my pants and hope he considered me too gross to touch.
If I was at the ATM and Ezel the Crackhead is dumb enough to come up, grab me, and demand my wallet I might consider snapping his finger.
If you are a cop or a bouncer, you gotta learn standing AND ground jointlocks because you simply can’t pound a suspect in any range of combat.
agreed. they need to learn control tactics as they cannot just pound someone. I always hear people talk about the assailant that grabs your lapel, shoulder, etc. but I personally have never seen that. there’s an exchange of words, and a sudden strike from out of nowhere. I’ve only seen the grab in movies. I’ve seen a push before the strike, but never a grab. Now, in a clinch, in an enclosed area, I can see a high chance of standing locks being effective, if you’re properly trained, but I personally would opt for other techniques.
I grew up near Philadelphia and streetfighting seemed to have a Flyers/Broad Street Bullies hockey-esque quality in a lot of the bars (ie. Grab jersey with weak hand / Pound with dominant hand / Fight goes to ground / Dominant player kneels beside pummeled player / Dominant player grabs a handful of the prone guy’s shirt or has never let go of it / Pummeling continues).
The wrist/shoulder/sleeve etc grabs are definately remnants of Japan’s feudal era. By grabbing the wrist you could stop someone drawing their sword/knife, and kimono had a design where, if you took the sleeve it disengaged his arm.
I liked what Stranger said about a street confrontation grab. Rather than the extended arm grab seen in jujutsu/aikido, a lot of people get tense when angry, and curl their arm up in an attempt to pull you in. Defences against these (incl. tackles, neck locks, pinned by his friend, etc), as well as the circular attacks not often used in trad. japanese arts, are useful too.
That actually makes me curious - I wonder how fighting styles of the non-trained vary from state to state or region to region. Here in my state, it’s as I stated above. Small exchange of words, quick strike with followups. If you go to the ground, cool - they stomp and kick you. this same format applies if multiple attackers are involved.
I’ve been thinking about the same thing SevenStar! 
Even in gang-style attacks, weaponry and tactics differs depending on ethnicity. It’s interesting seeing where the ‘norm’ is - I think in Australian society, kicking for example has become more socially acceptable in brawls.
Philadelphia is colder than Tennessee, therefore we are usually wearing more clothing= more grabbing.
Hockey is insanely popular in Philadelphia (and the Flyers have a long time reputation for being a thug team). This grab and pummel is what hockey fighting is all about.
its interesting that the hombu aikido i studied and continue to play with include all the techniques you just mentioned
hmmm… dunno what the ‘norm’ is in the uk… back home its usually a shove on to a headbutt (scotland :D) but here it seems to be similar to sevenstar (middle england). At least the ones i been part of anyway 
dawood
Well we are all smart this time… you mentioned the key right off the bat. “Structure”..all you have to do is continuously break someones structure or posture and the strikes in between will do the rest. Locks aren’t an end onto themselves, they are a transitional phase. Nice to see I am not the only one who feels this way.
O yeah, i almost forgot, applying locks with the zoom (dumag style in the fillipino arts and possibly what in wing chun is a (?) jut sao or sudden jerking force downwards) means that you can break the posture by suddenly using your body weight to snap a structural change to the opponent followed right away by a change in direction (seen allot in aikido) to another broken posture. This “breaking” allows the control until you can get one step ahead of the opponent and possibly break or crush something…So no point to this post, just agreeing!
memories…
Originally posted by Dragon Warrior
when sakuraba fought henzo didnt he apply a standing “kimura” and ended up using it to off balance henzo and obtain superior postition. He ended up finishing the kimura on the ground, but it worked standing up in some context.
Someone has a memory here. Anyways, Ryron and Renner Gracie have won many a Sport GJJ tourney with standing cross-collar chokes (Gyaku-Juji-Jime or Reverse Cross Lock in Judo). In a couple of instances they didn’t even have to pull guard to get enough leverage. The dudes were tapping even before they reached the ground.
I could show you some standing controls and locks from Okinawan Tuite/Tegumi that would make someone think twice about their evaluation of standing grappling. Plus, you learn to take an opponent down in the old-school traditions of Okinawa, using a knee-on-chest position (mount) among other techs..
They can work, but more strength, good angles, sweeps, misdirection and “softening up” is sometimes needed.
Originally posted by Stranger
[B]
I’ve seen plenty of bouncers and cops use them in the real world; therefore they work.
If you are a cop or a bouncer, you gotta learn standing AND ground jointlocks because you simply can’t pound a suspect in any range of combat. [/B]
I was the head bouncer of a club for 4 years and bounced in another club for an additional two. Plain and simple, joint locks are the way to go.
In my city, I was the first of the non-steroid monkey bouncers. I was about 6’1", 175lbs when I started bouncing, which made me a lot smaller than many of the men I had to control/remove.
Needless to say, moving a 6’6", 300lbs man out the door WITHOUT smashing his face off of numerous pillars (or severely hurting him otherwise) is quite the challenge.
I say 6’6", 300lbs, because that was the situation that I was most thankful I had been given some joint locking training in. The big guy didn’t want to leave, went to shove me back and ended up in what we called a “swan lock”. He walked VERY nicely and politely with me through the crowded bar and out the door. It was very busy, so he was in that joint lock for a good 10 minutes (There was no thrashing around… it looked like I was simply helping him walk). When I let him go outside the doors, I was expecting to have to deal with him again, but he most certainly didn’t want anything more to do with me. AND he wasn’t hurt. That made me feel pretty **** good.
I’ve used the same lock and others hundreds of times since (I no longer bounce… what a horrible industry). Not only do they work, but I’ve found that once your general brawlers get stuck in a few very painful joint locks they don’t mess with you after. Guess they don’t wanna see what you COULD do to them while you’ve got them immobilized.
Ok… I’ve made my case for security/cops using joint locks… now I’ll make comment on using them in street fighting.
Unless, as has been stated, you are using them as a transition to another move (elbow/knee/kick/punch/etc), I wouldn’t even consider using something that was taught to me as “pain compliance”. I’d try to bust someone’s knee, then get the hell out of there. (depending on the situation, of course)
Now… that’s just my opinion… you guys might have others, but since I saw bouncers being brought into the thread, I figured since I have a lot of experience in that field that I would speak up:)
Being in a job where I’m prone to attack, I must say that standing locks have saved my ass on more than one occasion. They do work, even as an end in themselves, although you do always have the problem of what do you do with the guy? Telling him calmly what you’ll do to him if he tries to attack you when you let go sometimes works. Even if it doesn’t you can then say in court that you tried to restrain him but he was intent on causing you harm which forced you break his jaw in 5 places 
The reason they don’t work in the ring is because people tend to under-commit to their techniques in a sporting format. If you even look like you’re thinking of immobilising a limb they’ll whip back the technique short.
Sadly Stranger your tactic wouldn’t work as small joint manipulation is not allowed in most MMA formats (which would suggest it’s pretty effective) .
Wow!, I’m impressed this didn’t turn into another Good Grappler tm thread.
Looks like it just did.
Standing locks are OK but hard to finish since the “victim” has a lot of room to move around and strike if they are on their feet. I have met some people who can use them, particularly on untrained opponents, but they are kind of tricky. They also seem to need more strength and speed than ground submissions.
" Standing locks are OK but hard to finish since the “victim” has a lot of room to move around and strike if they are on their feet."
I can see that even though the point has been made before the same responses keep coming up. Standing Locks are a means to a transition, not an end. They can work if applied properly and they can backfire if the guy doesn’t care about the limb in question.