this is pt one of more to come, just demonstrating a basic phon-sao
I will however post more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDyCHIozZik&feature=youtu.be
ok, let the trolling begin!
Nice, looking forward to the one with gloves.
nice clip, and nice school
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1239609]this is pt one of more to come, just demonstrating a basic phon-sao
I will however post more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDyCHIozZik&feature=youtu.be
ok, let the trolling begin!:p[/QUOTE]
Well, since you asked 
The issue I have is this:
If the back fist ( which I would not do over the arm on the outside, typically) hits with decent amount of force, the opponent will not “be there” for the joint lock.
I can almost see that being “ok” off a committed punch but a Jab?
Get someone who can throw a decent jab.
You don’t have a standing key lock off the jab. Maybe “traditional” practitioners leave their arm hanging out for someone to grab, but that’s not reality. You’re telling me that in the time it takes your opponent to jab (even stepping in on a power jab), your going to beat the foot, smack their arm twice, strike them, and then pull a submission? I call b.s.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1239609]with gloves-both boxing and mma-just to show how the "Kung-Fu doesn’t work with gloves so we can’t really fight in the ring/cage,etc ever..but we’re still cool" excuse doesn’t hold water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDyCHIozZik&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]
Yes it does. The practitioner just needs to learn to modify their classic training to fit modern sport. Start with actually learning boxing and kickboxing.
My only comment is what’s his other hand going to be doing as you slap THEN trap the front hand with your other hand whilst you stand there directly in front of him?? Other than trying to take your head off with a cross?
Other than that im looking forward to the other clips but I am puzzled as to why you decided to start with a bad example of a jab with the arm left hanging, why not start with a good jab and show us the good stuff?
[QUOTE=Frost;1239653]My only comment is whats his other hand going to be doing as you slap THEN trap the front hand with your other hand whilst you stand there directly in front of him?? Other than trying to take your head off with a cross?
Other than that im looking forward to the other clips but I am puzzled as to why you decided to start with a bad example of a jab with the arm left hanging, why not start with a good jab and show us the good stuff?[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the honest and intelligent critique. Much appreciated.
The first clip is done that way so the people in the cheap seats can see.
It is shown larger and slower to show how the technique is performed, just as you would teach something larger and slower. When performed fast against a quick jab, or against a committed lead hand strike, the timing is to attack the attack, and the footwork comes into play, as you zone to the outside, slightly and maintain pressure (bik ma).
Does it work 100% of the time in all situations? Does anything? Do you fight expecting to never get hit? Is it high percentage? Well, in many cases, it depends how well you train something. Huge swinging element punches are high percentage if you know how and when to throw them and how to set them up, and finish.
Now, just as soon as I get a teenage student to show me how to upload videos..I will put the others up.
Sifu Rogers went back to UK and we threw it up at the last minute.
Keep 'em coming!
Thanks for sharing!
The “catch” of the jab and follow-up had a real nice flow to it. The lock and takedown were a perfect fit and show that traditional Kung Fu fits in extremely well into the modern world where MMA is becoming the norm.
This is the stuff that shines a bright light on TCMA. Please keep the videos coming!
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1239639]Well, since you asked
The issue I have is this:
If the back fist ( which I would not do over the arm on the outside, typically) hits with decent amount of force, the opponent will not “be there” for the joint lock.
I can almost see that being “ok” off a committed punch but a Jab?[/QUOTE]
Bik Ma. Follow and stick and press your attack, constant forward pressure..
But you already knew that.
And not ALL jabs are probing strikes. Jack Dempsey’s “jab” is his stiff jolt, or Bruce Lee’s (plagerized) straight blast. Or Charp Choy, Jik Kuen, Biu Sao..
But..follow it in. Trap at the elbow/upper arm, shoulder. The hand moves 4 feet, but the elbow only moves 1/2 foot.
Doesn’t need to be a backfist. Could be a jik kuen, fung-ngan choy, pek choy,etc
Different types of force. Snap the head, but don’t drive through, but as I said, Bik Ma.
Doesn’t have to be on the outside. Can also be played on the inside. The second hand covers his strike-but..it’s touchy. My Si-Hings and Sifu pull that one off better than I do. More practice.
I’ve played this against experienced boxers, one of them an instructor at the local boxing gym. He does Gung-Fu now.
Nice points SJ.
I like intelligent fighters.
You should see some of the responses that were removed from the vid.
There seem to be a bunch of CMAists who recently discovered training, and think that they are the only ones who’ve ever put on a pair of gloves.:rolleyes:
My first reaction… since David is orthodox and you are south paw, you should have stood in reverse, or maybe you were trying to keep it all secret?
Second, if you are matched leads, you pak sau and gwa choih quite well… since you are not matched, you are advocating a double trapping movement before you even throw the punch. I’d guess that most of the time, the punch would retract before this would be successful
Third, much to be said for what Sanjuro said, hit someone HARD and it drives them backward.. this doesn’t seem to be accounted for?
Good Points! read my responses. I think I pretty much covered that.
As far as matched leads, Again, I was showing that for ease of demonstrating.
I teach it from matched leads first as it is easier to learn.
Also, when I teach, I teach both sides, right and left leads, open and closed stances, ambidexterity.
Your opponent punches you with his left arm. You
Since your right deflect hand will move your opponent’s arm to his right (your left), he can borrow your force and pull back his left punching arm. The chance that you can use your left hand to catch his left wrist from “outside” is low. If you move your left hand to be “inside” of his left arm (his front door), you can use your right hand to “guide” his left arm toward your left hand. Your chance to catch his arm will be higher. It’s much easier to catch your opponent’s arm if you have one outside hand (your right) and one inside hand (your left) than to have both your hands to be outside of his punching arm.
Also in step 2, if your left hand can catch your opponent’s arm, you can take him down right at that moment. You don’t need to go through step 3.
Greetings,
I do not see that technique ever working in real time, even if you are going up against a one armed man.
It looks like something Inosanto inspired. Nothing more.
mickey
There is a difference between what works on a trained individual and what works on an untrained individual (often those we would need to defend ourselves from are on the untrained end of the spectrum).
The technique you showed in the video TT is something that would likely work on an untrained individual, but might be difficult to pull off on a trained fighter. There is nothing wrong with that, each method has its place depending on what we are focusing on.
As an example: I have a police officer friend that has pulled off a middle parry + biu sau across the face into a guat sau to get outside the elbow + attack towards centerline or one of the legs, move into wrist lock into handcuffs combination many times, it has become a go to method for him in escalating scenarios. The combination would be harder to pull off on someone in a sport scenario yet that has little impact on his ability to use it to perform his job on both people that have attacked him, as well as officers involved in DT classes.
Everything has its place if you figure out the context it will thrive in. Sport is one context.
couple of things.
I don’t see a trap. Maybe it’s a term thing? I see a slap, a check and the attack.
Also I would drive the gwa sao at 45 or horizontal into / across the face instead of bringing it down on the crown.
Good tech, would likely do just as well without the check in a real time moving scenario, just slap and strike. Check is nice to have, but not totally necessary after the line of attack has been changed with the pak sao.
My .05 (we don’t got no pennies no more, gotta go the full nickle.)
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1239714]I don’t see a trap. [/QUOTE]
IMO, it should be an “arm guiding - to use your right hand to guide your opponent’s left punching arm into your left hand” instead. In order to do that, your catching hand has to be on the opposite side of your guiding hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRR6mP-sMno
The more reasonable assumption is if you make a move, your oppponent will also makes a move. If you make 4 moves, your opponent will also make 4 moves. To assume that you make 4 moves and your opponent only makes 1 move is not realistic.
The praying mantis system likes to use this kind of combo but the assumption is, you have to attach an effective “hook” on your opponent. This way, when he retreats, he will pull your body with him. Without that "hook’, your opponent’s body is already gone when you try to apply your step 2 move.
Other than pulling a keylock off a jab (which isn’t going to happen), I don’t have so much problem with the technique itself.
I do have a problem with the way this video (and nearly every other kung fu video) displays the technique, though. Typically when I teach a technique, I will teach the footwork and body positioning first. You and your partner start from what looks like an arbitrary distance and I don’t get a sense of you teaching any footwork or body positioning. If you just stick to punching, the sense of distance required is pretty intuitive (close enough to hit the other guy in the face). For any standing qinna, it is less so, and its really important to impart that to the student.
For the strike itself, it would be great to show it as a mitt drill. That way, we could get a sense of how it is played with some footwork.
When your opponent punches at you, his arm is trying to be straight. If you want to use joint locking on him by taking advantage on his straight arn, you should help his arm to be straight even more and lock on his elbow joint. It’s not technique efficiency if you ignore that straight arm, and trying to bend his wrist from a string position into a bending positiion.
Here is an example. Instead of using 4 moves, you can just using 1 move to against 1 move.
Its always easy to take a training demonstration and take it apart with a lot of ‘ifs’ or to move into your own ideas with an ‘or’
Check-bridge-strike. I totally get the use of slap/check before the heavy bridge. The vid shows it as a defence, it works just as well in attack, checking the lead hand to prevent the defensive jab as you move in to bridge… Say, the second some knob throws up his classic Gwailo Kuen left lead. The very second, because he crossed the line…
The check hits the jab as it is coming out, before extension, knocking it off axis/or target, and rotating the body momentum counter to the direction leaded for a good right counter.
Your bridge reaches full extension as or before the jab does, trapping and turning the opponent.
The strike hits on the half beat, before the opponent reacts to the bridge, much less brings the right around.
you can use a light ‘attention getter’ to the face (to raise his guard) and follow up with something big, or go for gold on the strike.
Ten moves fast, demonstrates his style in a manner other students can learn the exercise. The beginning stuff, for beginners… He can demonstrate the dynamic at speed, which a student needs to see to understand as they lumber through the learning of the mechanics.
Its a valid technique, sure, not full power, but its just a training vid.
I don’t know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through…
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1239724]When your opponent punches at you, his arm is trying to be straight. If you want to use joint locking on him by taking advantage on his straight arn, you should help his arm to be straight even more and lock on his elbow joint. It’s not technique efficiency if you ignore that straight arm, and trying to bend his wrist from a string position into a bending positiion.
Here is an example. Instead of using 4 moves, you can just using 1 move to against 1 move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oU5m2cx0GI&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]
John, we use the same set up, but bring an elbow strike up into his elbow for the break instead of the throw, or a palm to the shoulder to drive the face into the ground. The footwork is almost exact.