Does your WC have upper cuts and hooks?
Granted the energy is not akin to what a boxer is doing. But WC lineages forms have an upper cut or a hook with in the system…
Such as Chum Kiu having a short range upper cut. Bil Gee having right and left hook after pulling your opponent into it.
So do tell do you train against a hooks and uppercuts also do you train to apply them in sparring?
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1138158]Does your WC have upper cuts and hooks?
Granted the energy is not akin to what a boxer is doing. But WC lineages forms have an upper cut or a hook with in the system…
Such as Chum Kiu having a short range upper cut. Bil Gee having right and left hook after pulling your opponent into it.
So do tell do you train against a hooks and uppercuts also do you train to apply them in sparring?[/QUOTE]
My Wing Chun that I have been taught and train has 90% (best guess) of all the striking that all other martial arts have - just that it goes through a different ‘expression’ on the way out.
Straights, verticals, hooks, uppercuts, over-the-top elbows, horizontal elbows, upward elbows, knees, headbutts, clinch-ish, shoulder-butts, etc. You name it…it’s there.
[QUOTE=couch;1138160]My Wing Chun that I have been taught and train has 90% (best guess) of all the striking that all other martial arts have - just that it goes through a different ‘expression’ on the way out.
Straights, verticals, hooks, uppercuts, over-the-top elbows, horizontal elbows, upward elbows, knees, headbutts, clinch-ish, shoulder-butts, etc. You name it…it’s there.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the post!
I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138224]I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.[/QUOTE]
plenty of people gets ko by hook in boxing what makes you think theres no power behind it ?
Hook can be effective, but like all other weapons you need to do it right and time it right
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1138158]Does your WC have upper cuts and hooks?
Granted the energy is not akin to what a boxer is doing. But WC lineages forms have an upper cut or a hook with in the system…
Such as Chum Kiu having a short range upper cut. Bil Gee having right and left hook after pulling your opponent into it.
So do tell do you train against a hooks and uppercuts also do you train to apply them in sparring?[/QUOTE]
There are no hooks and uppercuts in my VT! The action in CK that looks like an uppercut is not an uppercut. There are no hooks in BJ either.
Maybe you should be thinking more along the lines of recovering the elbow position, control of the center and improving the usage of elbow for the punch.
These hooking and uppercut actions in general WC systems stem from people in the past looking at others doing the forms and creating their own interprtations based on what they see…my opinion.
There are other ideas at work here.
I would rather you had said “some” lineages use these as hooks and uppercuts. 
GH
I wouldn’t call the thing in bui jee a hook as you are just bending your wrist and not bending the elbow. It is more of a waist movement with the pivot . We also don’t use the chum kui as an uppercut tguis is more to teach you how to get back to a punch from the bong, also with the wrist turned it blocks more of the center, adds power etc. I use this a lot on the ground when punching the guy in the side as it is near impossible the do the normal fist and not contact with the finger portion of the wrist with a straight punch
That doesn’t mean I don’t punch up or the side but a hook and an uppercut are based on boxing terms and I know what I learn boxing was completly different so I like to make the distinction
I wouldn’t call the thing in bui jee a hook as you are just bending your wrist and not bending the elbow. It is more of a waist movement with the pivot .
Correct! Its not a hook. Why do we bend the wrist inwards during fook sau??..maybe for the same reasons.
We also don’t use the chum kui as an uppercut tguis is more to teach you how to get back to a punch from the bong, also wit hygr quest turned it blocks more of the center, adds power etc.
It is to teach how to punch correctly (elbow position) but it could be from any position. Its all about the punch, reinforcing SLT and where we start to use different angles. We can’t fight using SLT. It is one dimensional. VT comes alive in CK.
The idea of elbow usage and recovery is everywhere in the forms.
GH
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138224]I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.[/QUOTE]
A proper hook has the body behind it. If you are only using the arm, they usually call that a “swing”.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138224]I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.[/QUOTE]
The hook doesn’t have the body behind it? How so? Wing Chun’s hip-twisting action to generate power is a perfect place to start the hook.
Hooks, also, aren’t generally long, looping actions. Hooks are tight and can be used at a close range.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1138238]Correct! Its not a hook. Why do we bend the wrist inwards during fook sau??..maybe for the same reasons.
GH[/QUOTE]
I agree and don’t think that the BJ contains a hook. In my lineage, it’s called a Ginger Fist (akin to a panther punch). Needs conditioning to make it work, so I use a close fist as a personal preference. The ginger fist can fit into small (rib) spaces, can rake against the ribs and is a good tool to use when refacing (as BJ teaches).
[QUOTE=couch;1138286]I agree and don’t think that the BJ contains a hook. In my lineage, it’s called a Ginger Fist (akin to a panther punch). Needs conditioning to make it work, so I use a close fist as a personal preference. The ginger fist can fit into small (rib) spaces, can rake against the ribs and is a good tool to use when refacing (as BJ teaches).[/QUOTE]
You think there is time in fighting to place ginger fists between ribs??? 
If the ribs are open then why not just punch normally? No point in making funny shapes with the hand. There is too much risk of injury to strike with the wrist bent.
GH
upper cuts and hooks.
You can give them whatever name s you want. The upper cut and hook like motions are not western boxing motions because of wing chun approach to use of shoulder and the rquirements of good chor ma and other wing chun footwork… and the body is united in both motions.
Depends on your wing chun.
BTW even in boxing, a good hook is NOT a swing.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Graham H;1138326]You think there is time in fighting to place ginger fists between ribs??? If the ribs are open then why not just punch normally? No point in making funny shapes with the hand. There is too much risk of injury to strike with the wrist bent.
GH[/QUOTE]
Wing Chun is a Kung-Fu.
Plus, the Ginger Fist is in there due to the recovering position from the BJ. Not a lot of room.
How hard will it be to include both “hook punch” and “upper cut” into your training? Why should you care about whether it was in your system or not? As long as you know how to use it, that should all you care about. You are the master and styles are your slaves. It’s you that’s more important.
A: Dear master! Does “hook punch” exist in our style?
B: It didn’t. Since I know how to do “hook punch” and I have taught you already, today you can say that our style has “hook punch”. 1000 years from today, who is going to ask the same question?
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138224]I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that’s completely baseless, I’ve knocked down people with my right hook (fighting in southpaw). From my experience, uppercuts are a lot harder to get power than hooks. There’s a lot of more hip rotation in a hook than an uppercut.
Primarily we dont use hooks and uppercuts or any striking that makes us overturn and unable to make an instant new attack.
Iow we dont lose the ability to make an attack for the same reasons you will give me one if you over swing past my positions.
We use opponents axis turns from making this sort of attack against them.
Sadly many use blocks that prevent this and maintain incorrect tactical ideas placing themselves front and center to an opponent throwing just this attack… if you stand in front of a guy throwing hooks, uppercuts , etc…and stay there trying to block and hit, your setting yourself up for a takedown and in terms of a water fight you might block some but you will get wet in fights adopting this method. Another aspect of bad VT is using blocks to prevent this natural mistake opponents can make. thus compounding the mistakes against you because your ‘preventing’ it from happening…let them turn too much.
VT tries to use the opponents mistakes against them, like over swinging , overturning and countering them or preventing them re-facing again.
Turning the opponent on their axis continuously is possible using correct ideas.
In BG we only reface with a centered elbows, recovering elbows, iow we reface to attack with elbow ideas again not ginger fist , more conceptual stuff…blah blah
Im not saying anything against hooks and uppercuts , just why Ving Tsun doesnt adopt them.
Also we use bare hands that allow full force open palm strikes on heads that uppercuts do so they hit the face /jaw rather than break hands on downward defensive skulls. Plus the boxing combos etc…and bobbing and weaving allow this way with gloves, etc…
theres more but I have to train !
We do have both in our forms and I do quite a few uppercuts but not so many hooks are thrown (probablly because of WC principles) unless we are really tied up. However wo do defend against them a lot…
Sour milk.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1138369]How hard will it be to include both “hook punch” and “upper cut” into your training? Why should you care about whether it was in your system or not? As long as you know how to use it, that should all you care about. You are the master and styles are your slaves. It’s you that’s more important. [/QUOTE]
This is the smartest thing said in this thread IMO.
While you don’t want to discard the principals of your core art, just because you add something else doesn’t mean it adversely effects your VT. And you can take elements that are useful to VT IME.
A good precedent in VT would be the weapons. Most weapons training in my teachers day was taught last. So that you were at a level where learning the pole didn’t totally wreck your Chi Sau because of the force needed and the BJD didn’t wreck your horse…
I have and use the CK action as an uppercut. It does work well given i’ve knocked down sparring partners. As part of My teachers and therefore my own VT - who’s to tell me it isn’t VT ?
Perhaps people read into the term ‘HOOK’ or ‘UPPERCUT’ to much. My VT uppercut only has similarities to the mechanics of a boxing uppercut. They are not the same for obvious reasons.
Primarily we dont use hooks and uppercuts or any striking that makes us overturn and unable to make an instant new attack.
A hook doesn’t fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place. :rolleyes:
Iow we dont lose the ability to make an attack for the same reasons you will give me one if you over swing past my positions.
Thats why those that don’t know how to recover using VT ‘recovery tools’ should wait to branch out into other techniques. Moreover people that are aware can circumvent that negative aspect.
Spinning back kick is a perfect example of your theory. I hate them and as a VT fighter would never advocate them. But having been on the sharp end of one and seeing examples of top competitors - its clear to me that despite my own opinion.. there is a time and a place where all the negatives are moot.
Dont get boxed in, use what works. Sifu wont be fighting for you will he ?
[QUOTE=Liddel;1138419]This is the smartest thing said in this thread IMO.
While you don’t want to discard the principals of your core art, just because you add something else doesn’t mean it adversely effects your VT. And you can take elements that are useful to VT IME.
A good precedent in VT would be the weapons. Most weapons training in my teachers day was taught last. So that you were at a level where learning the pole didn’t totally wreck your Chi Sau because of the force needed and the BJD didn’t wreck your horse…
I have and use the CK action as an uppercut. It does work well given i’ve knocked down sparring partners. As part of My teachers and therefore my own VT - who’s to tell me it isn’t VT ?
Perhaps people read into the term ‘HOOK’ or ‘UPPERCUT’ to much. My VT uppercut only has similarities to the mechanics of a boxing uppercut. They are not the same for obvious reasons.
A hook doesn’t fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place. :rolleyes:
Thats why those that don’t know how to recover using VT ‘recovery tools’ should wait to branch out into other techniques. Moreover people that are aware can circumvent that negative aspect.
Spinning back kick is a perfect example of your theory. I hate them and as a VT fighter would never advocate them. But having been on the sharp end of one and seeing examples of top competitors - its clear to me that despite my own opinion.. there is a time and a place where all the negatives are moot.
Dont get boxed in, use what works. Sifu wont be fighting for you will he ?[/QUOTE]
A hook doesn’t fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place. :rolleyes:
You sound like you’re in the same mind set as many who dont understand the reasons for not using uppercuts and hooks. The other reasons are the elbows and their relationship to VT specific ways of hitting. We cant use hook elbows or lifting upper cut elbows as we use VT strikes..but you knew that right
As for the quote above , its a combination effect of rotation on the axis line, regardless of ‘precision’ you throwing curves and you will make turning lines of force, the more force guys throw the more they turn and have to recover…Its also easy to read the next hit coming …
Your sarcasm only highlights your ignorance of VT
try this, have a guy hit a focus pad hard with a hook , as he hits the pad take the pad away and see what happens when he misses his intended impact spot…does he keep going ? stop dead ? over turn a little more than he thought…
Then ask him to step with bodyweight and hook and repeat, its harder to control the body weight …if you hold the pad up there for him to hit he wont over swing ; )