Wing Chun Upper Cut and Hooks?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Glad were having a great Conversation

Glad to see people getting along and not griping about My WC is better than your VT…

Ne way. Very interesting discussion thus far…

I agree with the following post!

1.Couch
2.Jesper
3.Kevin
4.joy chaudhuri
5.YouKnowWho
6.Fa Xing
7.Liddel
8.mjw

I respect the post made by Graham, k gledhill’s,
k gledhill.

In any case let me share how my WC uses the Hook and Upper cut…My Sifu never called the upper fist motion a upper cut. I say upper cut because of the direction of fist. Its going up like tok sau or tie sau. Only with a fist. The energy of course is quite different than a boxing uppercut and frankly doesn’t have the power a boxing uppercut would have with out you pulling or jerking the opponent in a downward motion while your fist raises. But you can add power,Jing and Force to the upper cut. Which at the very least “you can split the lip”.

That is my synopsis on the uppercut or as Sifu would say “Split the Lip”

The infamous “HOOK”! Again the energy is different. A Boxing Hook does have a lot more overall body power mechanics. Partly because you train it on a heavy bag. But also because of the movement. But With my Wing Chun we don’t do a blind hook or unattached hooked. In Bil Gee, the Hook is executed after pulling your opponent into it. So you turn your body or torso while pulling your opponent off his center as he steps or stumbles forward due to loss of structure you regain the center by hooking around with a fist to his face. The energy is different because you have hip or torso rotation accompanied with pulling your opponent into the punch aka hook.

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[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1138441]Glad to see people getting along and not griping about My WC is better than your VT…

Ne way. Very interesting discussion thus far…

I agree with the following post!

1.Couch
2.Jesper
3.Kevin
4.joy chaudhuri
5.YouKnowWho
6.Fa Xing
7.Liddel
8.mjw

I respect the post made by Graham, k gledhill’s,
k gledhill.

In any case let me share how my WC uses the Hook and Upper cut…My Sifu never called the upper fist motion a upper cut. I say upper cut because of the direction of fist. Its going up like tok sau or tie sau. Only with a fist. The energy of course is quite different than a boxing uppercut and frankly doesn’t have the power a boxing uppercut would have with out you pulling or jerking the opponent in a downward motion while your fist raises. But you can add power,Jing and Force to the upper cut. Which at the very least “you can split the lip”.

That is my synopsis on the uppercut or as Sifu would say “Split the Lip”

The infamous “HOOK”! Again the energy is different. A Boxing Hook does have a lot more overall body power mechanics. Partly because you train it on a heavy bag. But also because of the movement. But With my Wing Chun we don’t do a blind hook or unattached hooked. In Bil Gee, the Hook is executed after pulling your opponent into it. So you turn your body or torso while pulling your opponent off his center as he steps or stumbles forward due to loss of structure you regain the center by hooking around with a fist to his face. The energy is different because you have hip or torso rotation accompanied with pulling your opponent into the punch aka hook.[/QUOTE]

This pulling onto yourself and hitting is also wrong thinking, If you pulla wrestler towards you he will like you more…
We pull to TURN guys away from ourslves on thier axis lines, iow we take an arm that tactically will lead them 90 deg facing to our left or right so the only arm they can hit with is 180 deg away from us, ideally.
We dont do kata, so bil gee isnt about we do this then that , its intentionally NOT kata for this concept driven thinking, we decide the actions based on the reality before us using lat sao chet chung , etc…
If you stop my fist hitting you with a rigid extended lever, I simply aim that arm/lever 90 deg away from me sharply, NOT towards me :smiley: ..a common mistake many ‘so-called’ masters make :wink:

We strike in a unique fashion that requires a lot of conditioning to achieve, adding a hook or an uppercut isnt going to help this goal. In fact our whole repertoire is done in forms , drilling, chi-sao hitting chests etc…so we DONT RAISE ELBOWS :smiley:

Im sorry if I sound arrogant and telling you you CANT …but if you dont understand the VT idea you might as well adopt every punch being thrown by all other styles, why not ? use no limit as limit be everything and all :smiley: yeah thats why we evolved into sophisticated realization of Ving Tsun fighting.

Ive seen guys win fights in nightclub foyers doing wind mill swings back and forth :smiley: why not call that VT windmill , :o

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I understand what your saying an respectfully disagree with you!

First off to clarify with you. I agree with what your saying about pulling a wrestler into you. No with the hook you don’t pull him into your center. But away from your center. You pull him so he is somewhat flanked an your on his blind side. An as you disengage you re-established your center by hooking the punch into his face. I would simply have to either spar with you or freestyle chi sau with you to show you what i mean. Free Sparring is the best way. I am not saying in WC I would be attempting a hook fifty percent of the time. No that technique i rarely use. But I know its there in case a situation rises where i can utilize it. But i respect your comment in how you do things. There is a lot of knowledge in what you say. But my disagreement falls with the application of what I am trying to convey. Unless you had it done to you or done it to someone else you won’t quite understand what I mean!!! But its all good.

As for wrestlers. There are certain techniques i use more so on wrestlers and others I use on boxers and totally different techniques i use for kickers. Everyone’s Martial Art is different. All have strengths and weaknesses. Even Wing Chun!

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138444]This pulling onto yourself and hitting is also wrong thinking, If you pulla wrestler towards you he will like you more…
We pull to TURN guys away from ourslves on thier axis lines, iow we take an arm that tactically will lead them 90 deg facing to our left or right so the only arm they can hit with is 180 deg away from us, ideally.
We dont do kata, so bil gee isnt about we do this then that , its intentionally NOT kata for this concept driven thinking, we decide the actions based on the reality before us using lat sao chet chung , etc…
If you stop my fist hitting you with a rigid extended lever, I simply aim that arm/lever 90 deg away from me sharply, NOT towards me :smiley: ..a common mistake many ‘so-called’ masters make :wink:

We strike in a unique fashion that requires a lot of conditioning to achieve, adding a hook or an uppercut isnt going to help this goal. In fact our whole repertoire is done in forms , drilling, chi-sao hitting chests etc…so we DONT RAISE ELBOWS :smiley:

Im sorry if I sound arrogant and telling you you CANT …but if you dont understand the VT idea you might as well adopt every punch being thrown by all other styles, why not ? use no limit as limit be everything and all :smiley: yeah thats why we evolved into sophisticated realization of Ving Tsun fighting.

Ive seen guys win fights in nightclub foyers doing wind mill swings back and forth :smiley: why not call that VT windmill , :o[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138424]
try this, have a guy hit a focus pad hard with a hook , as he hits the pad take the pad away and see what happens when he misses his intended impact spot…does he keep going ? stop dead ? over turn a little more than he thought…
Then ask him to step with bodyweight and hook and repeat, its harder to control the body weight …if you hold the pad up there for him to hit he wont over swing ; )[/QUOTE]
There is a combo move after the “hook punch” and that is the “turn back/hook kick”. You will need your body rotation momentum to execute your “turn back/hook kick”.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

The 45 degree downward hook punch is the best counter to be used to against straight punch. It will knock your opponent’s arm down and along with his body. When you throw a hook punch, if you use the sharp edge of your fore-arm to hit on the back of your opponent’s head, it can be a effective “finish” move. Old saying said, “3 punches on your opponent’s face cannot compare with one punch on the back of his head” (This is why hitting on the back of your opponent’s head is not allowed in boxing).

If you don’t train hook punch, you will miss a very useful tool.

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[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138224]I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.[/QUOTE]
A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1138449]There is a combo move after the “hook punch” and that is the “turn back/hook kick”. You will need your body rotation momentum to execute your “turn back/hook kick”.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

The 45 degree downward hook punch is the best counter to be used to against straight punch. It will knock your opponent’s arm down and along with his body. When you throw a hook punch, if you use the sharp edge of your fore-arm to hit on the back of your opponent’s head, it can be a effective “finish” move. Old saying said, “3 punches on your opponent’s face cannot compare with one punch on the back of his head” (This is why hitting on the back of your opponent’s head is not allowed in boxing).

If you don’t train hook punch, you will miss a very useful tool.[/QUOTE]

thanks for your post…I don’t understand why some people are so closed minded!

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1138450]A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.[/QUOTE]

So true…But when you throw a hook into a heavy bag you feel the power generation an just know you got more body behind it than an upper cut which is rising force oppose to swinging force with your body behind it. Horizontal Punches typically have more power than the verticals ones. Their are ways to train boxing upper cuts outside of focus mitts. Like there is uppercut bag as well. I am so glad you shared this information.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1138450]A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.[/QUOTE]

If you use “stealing step” and spin your body, you can use your hook punch to knock your opponent from a vertical posture into a horizontal posture, and then drop to the ground. I didn’t know this was possible until oneday I saw it happened by my own eyes.

If your opponent attacks you in combat speed and you don’t have time to do anything, you can just spin your body out of the attacking path and throw your 45 degree downward hook punch out, your problem may be solved.

The hook punch can also be used to set up an “underhook” if you are interested in the grappling game.

It can be a very useful tool in your toolbox and that’s for sure.

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Ving Tsun has no hooks or uppercuts :smiley: carry on !

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The best thing so far is when somebody said how can you be so close minded when they are advocating an action that shouldn’t even be in the system. Hooks and uppercuts. Just face it dudes. Your teacher or teachers teachers put those in there because they knew no better. If hooks and uppercuts work for you in your lineage then that’s great. If you are knocking guys out with them then even better but they are not part of the ving Tsun idea! They contradict too many other ideas in the system. No need for me to say anymore than what I or Kevin has said. Kick boxing style wing chun with sticky arms is the norm nowadays. No big deal.

Gh

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1138466] they are not part of the ving Tsun idea! They contradict too many other ideas in the system. [/QUOTE]

This is a very interest point. What will you do when certain skills contradict to your system principles?

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1138467]This is a very interest point. What will you do when certain skills contradict to your system principles?[/QUOTE]

In a fight you must use whatever wins. I could win a fight by bashing your head with a brick. As yet I don’t think we have incorporated that secret move. Maybe we can stick it BJ. :D:D

GH

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138462]Ving Tsun has no hooks or uppercuts :smiley: carry on ![/QUOTE]
That’s so wrong. When WSL used a knee in a fight people said that wasn’t WC (I use WC since that’s VT is pronounced). He said he used the closest weapon to the closest target.
If the only way to effectively hit someone is a round punch and you do so then it’s WC. A good example is once I wanted to punch someone but his friend was in my way in front of him. I simply punched around his friend and hit the guy. At that moment that was the most efficient way to hit him. Ergo, I used a WC principle. Maybe you should have written that “your” WC doesn’t have round or uppercut punches. Like I’ve said many times. People who think they have the Holy Grail of WC are delusional. Just like people who think that Yip Man was the Grandmaster of all WC.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1138473]That’s so wrong. When WSL used a knee in a fight people said that wasn’t WC (I use WC since that’s VT is pronounced). He said he used the closest weapon to the closest target.
If the only way to effectively hit someone is a round punch and you do so then it’s WC. A good example is once I wanted to punch someone but his friend was in my way in front of him. I simply punched around his friend and hit the guy. At that moment that was the most efficient way to hit him. Ergo, I used a WC principle. Maybe you should have written that “your” WC doesn’t have round or uppercut punches. Like I’ve said many times. People who think they have the Holy Grail of WC are delusional. Just like people who think that Yip Man was the Grandmaster of all WC.[/QUOTE]

The discussion isn’t about what one will use, if needed, to win a fight. The discussion is about hooks and uppercuts being present in CK and BJ isnt it? If we adopt the theory of “incorporate anything that goes” then what is the point in even training a specific Martial Art? We may as well ALL do what you do and take up kick boxing!

F**k it! I’m going to start doing my CK with a baseball bat form now on! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

GH

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1138473]That’s so wrong. When WSL used a knee in a fight people said that wasn’t WC (I use WC since that’s VT is pronounced). He said he used the closest weapon to the closest target.
If the only way to effectively hit someone is a round punch and you do so then it’s WC. A good example is once I wanted to punch someone but his friend was in my way in front of him. I simply punched around his friend and hit the guy. At that moment that was the most efficient way to hit him. Ergo, I used a WC principle. Maybe you should have written that “your” WC doesn’t have round or uppercut punches. Like I’ve said many times. People who think they have the Holy Grail of WC are delusional. Just like people who think that Yip Man was the Grandmaster of all WC.[/QUOTE]

VT has no hooks or uppercuts …Yes you can adapt and fight to the moment, we all do this. It is part of the VT thinking to use no limit as your limit and not be a slave to the system. But that doesn’t mean adding hooks and uppercuts either :smiley:

Many “teachers” mistakenly create MORE in the system to impress, rather than reduce the subtle sophistication to a sharp razors edge, delivered at lightning speeds, with an attitude :smiley:

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138482]VT has no hooks or uppercuts …Yes you can adapt and fight to the moment, we all do this. It is part of the VT thinking to use no limit as your limit and not be a slave to the system. But that doesn’t mean adding hooks and uppercuts either :smiley:

Many “teachers” mistakenly create MORE in the system to impress, rather than reduce the subtle sophistication to a sharp razors edge, delivered at lightning speeds, with an attitude :D[/QUOTE]

My VT has a “lifting punch” in Chum Kiu, which is a variety of uppercut, and it has a hooking punch in Biu Tze. They are not used as commonly as the straight, “Sun” fist punch, but thay are useful in certain circumstances. In those situations they are the most efficient solution and the shortest path for the fist to reach it’s target. So, yes, they do follow the principles of VT/WC. Phil was absolutely spot on about this. If you guys want to limit your VT/WC, that’s fine by me.

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[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1138566]My VT has a “lifting punch” in Chum Kiu, which is a variety of uppercut, and it has a hooking punch in Biu Tze. They are not used as commonly as the straight, “Sun” fist punch, but thay are useful in certain circumstances. In those situations they are the most efficient solution and the shortest path for the fist to reach it’s target. So, yes, they do follow the principles of VT/WC. Phil was absolutely spot on about this. If you guys want to limit your VT/WC, that’s fine by me.[/QUOTE]

Where is the lifting punch in SLT ?

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1138478]The discussion isn’t about what one will use, if needed, to win a fight. The discussion is about hooks and uppercuts being present in CK and BJ isnt it? If we adopt the theory of “incorporate anything that goes” then what is the point in even training a specific Martial Art? We may as well ALL do what you do and take up kick boxing!

F**k it! I’m going to start doing my CK with a baseball bat form now on! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

GH[/QUOTE]
Some WC styles have uppercuts and round punches. :wink:

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[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1138566]My VT has a “lifting punch” in Chum Kiu, which is a variety of uppercut, and it has a hooking punch in Biu Tze. They are not used as commonly as the straight, “Sun” fist punch, but thay are useful in certain circumstances. In those situations they are the most efficient solution and the shortest path for the fist to reach it’s target. So, yes, they do follow the principles of VT/WC. Phil was absolutely spot on about this. If you guys want to limit your VT/WC, that’s fine by me.[/QUOTE]
Exactly what I was refering to.

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138574]Where is the lifting punch in SLT ?[/QUOTE]
In the WC I’ve seen there is no lifting punch in SLT. There are no kicks, double gan saos, kwan saos, gwai mah, front stance, etc., in SLT but these things do exist in the system.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1138578]In the WC I’ve seen there is no lifting punch in SLT. There are no kicks, double gan saos, kwan saos, gwai mah, front stance, etc., in SLT but these things do exist in the system.[/QUOTE]

Stances, kicks ,movement are in CK. SLT isnt fully functional until CK.

No double gaun sao either , its a low gaun sao + hi jum strike :wink: or kwan sao…that only exists in cycling through dummy work. The low bong being used on the low arm for ballistic force , while the tan has cycled from low gaun back to hitting…:smiley:

One has to imagine 'missing ’ with a lifting punch or missing with a hook to see the reasons we dont use them. If a lifting punch ‘lifts’ how do I cycle over it if you block it ? if I miss and overturn with a hook how do I hit you with the other hand …
We train not to over turn death by 1cm prevails