This requires (even of high level atheletes) using the entire bodyweight behind the hips (sprawling) to be effective. -How can you make “leading them to the ground” functional (enough force for real control against an explosive opponent) without using your full bodyweight in sprawling type of way??? -Please explain further…
-Lawrence
Force has one direction right? When intercepted correctly (after lots and lots of practice) you learn to lead them to the ground, not meaning you just put your hands on them to show them this way to go, but rather instead of muscling them to the ground you use their force against them combined with your own natural power, proper timing & side stepping. When I teach, one concept I like to reinforce is the idea of sucking the opponents attacks in, letting him think he has landed it and then at the last second, using the element of surprise, use his force against him. The key with this is to protect yourself first with proper positioning and guard (always try to have a barrier between yourself and your opponent, better my guard than my body), economy of motion, perception and contact reflexes. Like everything it takes practice but is very effective once learned, regardless if they are shooting, punching or kicking you for their attack.
You are using your weight behind your movements, but this is also being used in conjunction with your opponent’s momentum and your own usage of power at that right moment.
James
Grappling Counter to the Shoot
Here is something called an Anaconda Choke to counter the shoot. It doesn’t directly relate to Wing Chun except that any kind of fighting analysis is useful. To me it points out that grappling is not just doing Wing Chun on the ground. Instead you have to analyze all kinds of small details particular to that environment of fighting. The instructor in the video clip points out various details which if not done will make the technique fail. Of course there are many other solutions and also Wing Chun solutions before you get taken down and a few after you get taken down. But if your repertoire is limited than sooner or later your options run out fast and you will be in big trouble if trying to play the grappling game. Here is a link for a whole pile of grappling counters. If you are caught in one of those situations then do you have a Wing Chun solution?
Ray
Hmmmmmm… What about eliptical / circular motions??
There are numerous takedown techniques, and many of them do not (initially) drive toward the ground, so it will be difficult in those situations to “show them the way”, -and even the ones that do go to the ground immediately, the grappler will likely have his legs placed powerfully underneath him and could explode upward (with “wing chun-like” ground power), and be very hard to control.
-Few grapplers these days will commit to an all-out, single shot attack, and the ones who do, will probably be very good at it. (Be careful!!)
:eek:
This sounds very much like a description of a sprawl, -but then again…
More detail, please. (e.g. - Foot goes here, forearm makes contact here, etc.)
-Lawrence
Hey Lawrence,
Well as far as I know and have seen, humans can not travel in more than one direction at a time, yes they can change directions fast but the key is to use their force against them at the right time, while in the right position in comparison to them. The right position in my book is always to the side of the frontal area. Now if someone you are fighting is being elusive and non committed in their footwork and if someone has good balance/center of gravity while moving, then it all becomes more difficult, then of course it is harder to knock/pull/lead them off balance, but if this is the case are they really attacking you, meaning is the attack explosive enough to go thru your defense and allow them to successfully get the attack in? Do good fighters attack slowly or with explosiveness?
As for grapplers not fully committing to an all out single shoot attack, this may be the case. But whenever I see them I see all out commitment to the shoot with them driving the opponent backwards, but what do I know:D
The concept I use to teach students is applied every where in combat, not just against the shoot, but it can work well against them if applied correctly. That is the key, applying it correctly. In the end IMO, fighting effectively comes down to 1) your ability to see and read your opponents intentions, 2) controlling distance effectively, 3) timing- doing the right thing when required, after all the basics and foundational things have been absorbed. When in a fight your full attention should be on what your opponent is up to, not what your own body is doing and the mechanics there.
Regarding more details…One strategy I like to use is stepping to the outside of your opponents lead foot/leg once he has initiated his attack. This requires you to always have the lead foot/leg down the center of your stance at all times (we use a side neutral stance) during the non contact stage or range of fighting (outside kicking range). Side neutral stances allow greater lateral movement, and IMO this is what is needed more so at this stage than forward/backward movements. When any type of force, kick/punch/shoot/tackle etc.. comes your way, you side step either to the inside or outside of your opponents lead leg/foot. This is a safer position, while attacking at the same time with a variety of tools. When the shoot is on, one way is to use your Man Sao to attack the opponents neck area or head (with outer forearm or side palm strike), thus making contact to read the energy from the attack (therefore how committed is he), developed through chi-sao training. At this point I can kneel on one knee while directing him down to the ground with a lop sao or neck control, myself on top continuing the attack. There are many variations, this is just a general idea. I wish I had some storage space online and then I could get a video clip to show. Again, the idea is to avoid the direction of his force by side stepping, and controlling then while facing the point of contact, leading them to the ground. You will be using your own natural force with the body leading the way.
Gotta run…
James
Did you see the first match in the Ultimate Fight Night show between Drew Fickett and Josh Koshchek?
Josh (division I top-notch wrestler proven in MMA fights) committed himself to a takedown under a punch, caught a knee to the head, and was dropped, then back mounted and choked out.
Once people start training against the shoot, they’re not unhittable nor unstoppable.
Like every Martial Arts concept/principal/technique, it has to be done correctly in the right time and place. The question is how easy/hard is it for the everyday guy/gal to apply to someone under stress. The more complex the movement is the harder it will be to apply, therefore simplicity always rules…
James
Wayfaring,
When I referred to a “commited” shoot, I should have qualified it more carefully. I meant to say that few grapplers (exceptions noted) shoot in a way that puts all their eggs into a single basket, (i.e. -where they set up a situation where they will either; obtain the takedown, or put themselves in a seriously exposed postition when they fail.) The majority know how to adapt fairly easily to offlining movements, avoid most heavy strikes, and abort the takedown attempt with a reasonable amount of safety if things aren’t going well.
I did not, but I have seen Drew fight in the “King of the Cage”, and was impressed with his skill and ability.
To me, that means “The Fickett Method” of stopping a shoot with position & strikes has been validated against a skilled opponent. -What I am questioning here on this thread is “The Roller Method” of defending a takedown…
I’m quite sure that Mr. Fickett worked hard on that defense, -training against skilled guys that mixed up realistic strikes and realistic shoots who were trying to be deceptive & confusing. Eventually, he had put in enough “live” practice hours to where he could nail that defense a high percentage of the time against guys who really knew what they were doing.
Based on what he has stated in his posts, Mr. James “Sihing” Roller, trains himself and his students quite differently than Mr. Fickett (or the majority MMA fighters), and because Mr. Roller’s methods have not been validated against high level opponents the way Mr. Fickett’s have, I am questioning whether his arguments are sound.
I never meant to imply such… Clearly, a shooting grappler is hittable and stoppable, as I, myself, am able to pull it off (at times). -I certainly do not consider myself to be an elite fighter, but I have at least trained with / against guys who know how to shoot realistically.
-Lawrence
True, James… (I agree completely with what you stated above.)
We have to be wary though, of the danger of over simplifying, or of underestimating that which we have not yet faced.
-Lawrence
Underestimating is the first step to defeat.. One should never be thinking victory, defeat, anticipation, estimating or underestimating when fighting. Thinking is not the key, observation and understanding your opponent is IMO.
When investigating other methods of MA, personally I haven’t yet underestimated any of what I have seen, but in the same breath I didn’t agree with it all either. All of us have that right to judge systems. I’ve seen somethings that IMO are more effective than other methods demonstrated but all methods were workable.
Since this is a written forum, all of everything we all say is the same worth. Your fact is my theory and visa versa. Your experience is not mine and visa versa also, so unless we all meet in person then what else are we supposed to do when visiting this forum? Of course I have used the methods I described in my posts, otherwise how would I have learned them and be able to teach them, and all I did was describe to all interested the concepts & principals behind the method. The process is to be taught what to do, understand the theroy/concept behind it and then work it. The more one practices it the better they will be at it. In the end a punch is just a punch, a shoot is just a shoot, just that the pro’s do it all faster, and the counter to that is adaption. Either you will adapt when the situation is happening or you won’t. End of story.
Again this is not about the INDIVIDUAL, but what the system teaches.
Concerning my generalization on shoot defenses, if it fails I too can always sprawl…
James
I am personally only interested in methods that are workable against skilled and resisting opponents. (This may mean that adaptations have to be made to a particular method, -but so what? I don’t care how “pure” it is, so long as it keeps me from getting my @ss kicked.)
I disagree, James…
If two scientists advance opposing hypothosis, -but only one of them adheres to strict testing protocol and encourages peer review, -while the other does neither, and also has all of his “research” funded by a “for-profit” organization that directs what experiments he can perform, -how can you honestly say that their published results have equal validity??
It is one thing to say you will adapt, and it is quite another to train how to adapt under realistic pressure and circumstances so that your chances of actual success are greatly increased…
Have you trained it?
-Lawrence
One thing I would like to add…
Although I may not agree with the concept or philosophy of this or that Martial Art/ist, it does not mean I do not respect what they teach or underestimate what they teach, with the feeling that what so and so is doing is nothing near as effective what I am personally doing now in my MA life. IMO this is arrogance and overconfidence, and the first step to failure in MA. We all view things through colored glasses, regardless of how openminded we try to be.
An effective MA to me means that anyone and everyone has a equal opportunity to learn that MA and be able to apply it to some effectiveness for themselves (with some dedicated consistent effort over a period of time), not developing everyone to the status of “Deadly Fighter”, as this is the individuals responsibility if that is what they want to get out of it. All highly skilled Martial Artist from whatever system are dangerous fighters.
James
I agree also that in the end it is what works that matters, so we are the same on that one…
Who said that what I was writing in my posts hasn’t been or wasn’t tested? Just because I don’t train it hours a day doesn’t mean I didn’t in the past or that the ones today learning it are not? Basically in the end, when you are graded/tested you have no choice but to prove it works when needed. If you pass the test you have proven it for yourself. When you teach it to others and they go through that same testing procedure, you have proven it can work for others the same as yourself, so it is not about an individuals attributes, but about what the system teaches and how effective it is. After all these years if I (and Sifu also) saw that something wasn’t working we wouldn’t be teaching it
I agree with your paragraph about adaptation, “to know and not to do is not to know” is a saying I prescribe to. Let’s say for example, that I meet up with a skilled grappler and we spar and he is successful 6 out of 10 times taking me to the ground. Now if all it takes is for me to practice a bit more to bring those numbers down to 2 or 3 times out of 10 what does that mean? IMO it means that all I need to do is work on it in a physical way so that my body has absorbed the timing, coordination of what needs to be done, not that the actual method is ineffective, but can someone make an ineffective movement more effective by doing the same, working it more and more in practice?
Have I practiced the sprawl? No, not for a long while.
James
Bless you, Lawrence…your patience is admirable “when suffering fools” (Shakespeare?)…
and your arguments are superb!
It kinda reminds me of something Walter Mondale once said about Ronald Reagan during their first presidential debate in 1980: “I’m always amazed how this man can be SO CONVINCED that he’s right and SO WRONG all at the same time!”
There’s a term called “puncher’s chance” which refers to the situation where, on any given night, a passably competant fighter can get in a lucky punch and knock his opponent clean out. Hendo knocked out Renzo in a similar way.
However, this is essentially a bet or a hope, and IMHO, anything that is not repeatable under stress is not a skill, and has no place in a realistic strategy.
“High percentage” and “bread and butter” are better alternatives 
Agree on high percentage and bread and butter work.
Another thing it’s good to practice is to place yourself in trouble and work your way out. For example on this thread with the shoot examples, if you’re going to try and “stick” a shooter with a knee/elbow, practice missing. See if you can still sprawl. Practice being late for the sprawl and getting a single caught. Can you still control space while being taken down? Position yourself for advantage when you hit the ground? Can you recover position on the ground with skills there? For all you straight wc enthusiasts, isn’t a main concept of bil gee recovering your position when you lose it?
I dunno if that’s such a good idea. To practice missing, getting caught, etc. advocates you performing a movement either too early or too late. IMO, this is bad, as you may program the early / lkate response into yourself. IMO, the way to handle this is live training. You won’t stop EVERY shoot from EVERY person. When you miss or are too early, deal with the situation. In our bjj and mma classes, we have guys who shoot better than I sprawl. We also have some who aren’t as good as me. Consequently, I have plenty of time training early and late responses as well as picture perfect ones without purposely altering my timing to create a desired result.
Wayfaring,
I think this is generally a good idea to experiment with… Not as something to practice for numerous repetitions, but at least worth trying a few times as an indicator of what may, or may not be possible.
-Lawrence
***GOOD POST. One of the greatest catch wrestlers of all time (many would say THE greatest wrestler of all time - not just catch)…whose name was Lou thesz, 6 time heavyweight NWA wrestling champion (National Wrestling Alliance) - was trained by three of the very best catch wrestlers ever…(George Tragos, Ad Santell, and Ed “Strangler” Lewis…the same Ad Santell who went to Japan in the early 1900’s and beat, as in SUBMITTED, every Japanese judo/jiu jitsu fighter at the kudokan that he faced)…
Lou Thesz tells a story in his biography about how every training session he ever had with George Tragos started with Lou being in an inferior position - and having to wrestle his way out of it.
He attributed this kind of training as being a major part of his success later on in his career.
I am a big believer in this kind of training - since the unpredictability of the “real world” could quite conceivably result in finding yourself in a compromising situation/position/receiving end of a punch, kick, takedown, throw, etc…and I would much prefer to have had a reasonable amount of training for such contingencies before it may ever happen for real.
7*,
As a general rule, I would agree with you. However Wayfaring’s idea does have some merit. It’s planning for contigencies, which are certainly not the desired outcome, but sometimes you - well, maybe not you, but I - might just caught out of position or out of sync. As Lawrence said, I wouldn’t want to make a steady diet out of it, but it’s worth trying out.