it would be hard to breakall your fingers and laught whilst bil jee strike in eye socket(when fighting for real not sport which wing chun is designed for) wing chun has chi na (locking) where do you think grappling came from originally it wasn’ Brazil. most crosses travil in a round circle no matter how small they are not straight they tellergraph because the shoulder moves a lot more than a straight punch. you shouldn’t need to sprawl just sink on back leg lower center of gravity then redirect. if lower shoot at ankle your footwork should cover it and your ankle should’nt be there. 
Good post. Don’t let the naysayers, or ones that think mixing WC with other MA to fill in the gaps get to you. Yeah of course we all know the grapplers have defenses against strikes while on the ground, this is a given. Nothing is easy in fighting, especially if the two fighters are skilled in their craft. The point I always see in post by guys like Anerlich or others the mix WC with BJJ/GJJ/Catch etc.., is that they always guarantee the grappler to bring us WC’ners down, and that any counter we may have to the shoot/takedown is useless and totally ineffective (because the grapplers themselves have already thought up every counter conceivable, and that anyone else not in the grappling arts do not have the knowledge or skill to do the same, lol). Well IMO no one can say that. It’s all in the timing and execution of the movements that count. So in essence, no one including all the Gracie’s or expert grapplers out there can guarantee 100% all of the time that there ability to take someone down will work all the time. Neither can I guarantee that the counter to that takedown will work 100% of the time. There are too many variables to deal with when trying to explain this on internet forum, the Ya Buts will be coming out all over the place. All you can do is to provide a basic solution to the problem and work it out from there when needed. WC provides one with various solutions to problems, in a very simple, effective and efficient manner. All of these solutions can be easily adapted to handle many different situations that are not always practiced in class environments or thought of traditionally. This is key to an art’s overall effectiveness, the ability to adapt and still overcome.
N.mitch, I like your defense to the shoot, I prescribe to something similar to that also…
James
What the hell is wrong with sprawling?
Not basic enough?
No mobility when you sprawl. Not that it doesn’t work, or that there is not a place for it. Maybe as a last resort IMO. It’s a grapplers response because that is what they want to do in the first place, grapple.
James
No mobility?
Unlike sinking down on your back leg the WC way. That’s not particularly mobile either. What sort of mobility are you expecting to do? AND I don’t see how it’s going to actually stop someone taking you down. You’re on your back leg while they’re driving into you. It’s not good for balance.
Plenty of standup strikers have sprawled, stood back up and knocked the hell out of grapplers in MMA competition so it’s not JUST a grapplers response.
it would be hard to breakall your fingers and laught whilst bil jee strike in eye socket(when fighting for real not sport which wing chun is designed for)
Eye attacks, whether you call it “bil jee” or just an eye gouge, are not that difficult for anyone. If you need 10 years of WC to put a finger in someone’s eye, you’re supremely unco.
If both you and a skilled groundfighter, are trying to attack each other’s eyes, bite, fishhook etc. while one is in the other’s guard (your scenario, not mine), I’m betting on him.
BJJ was designed for self defense. Rickson’s probably had as many streetfights as Emin.
wing chun has chi na (locking) where do you think grappling came from originally it wasn’ Brazil.
It does, but I’ve seen no one in WC whose chin na would be a match for a BJJ purple belt. I do know a KF guy whose chin na is excellent, but he also happens to be a nidan in JJJ.
Jujitsu originated in Japan around the 16th century. I recommend “Mastering Jujitsu” by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher, if you want to actually sound informed on the history of Jujitsu.
most crosses travil in a round circle
is there another kind of circle? You need to get someone to show you how to throw a proper cross.
no matter how small they are not straight they tellergraph because the shoulder moves a lot more than a straight punch. you shouldn’t need to sprawl just sink on back leg lower center of gravity then redirect.
WC guys still keep getting hit with hooks and missing with straight punches. Theory and practice are a lot closer in theory than they are in practice.
Can you show me any unchoreographed vids of anyone actually pulling this off against someone who can shoot properly?
if lower shoot at ankle your footwork should cover it and your ankle should’nt be there.
Actually, if we can play “would” and “should”, how did you manage to not avoid the fight entirely?
Are shoots the only possible takedowns? If not, what other defenses do you have to the common takedowns?
N.mitch, I like your defense to the shoot, I prescribe to something similar to that also…
You’re both entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine.
Good post…
-L
I think it’s safe to say that none of us should hold our breath waiting for such a video to materialize.
-Lawrence
It is hard to sink on your back leg in a twc neutrel stance hence why you would have trouble doing it,your balance is up to high.
Try it a front stance its a lot easier. a shoot works because they take your balance because they attack with a lower center of gravity and drive you. which is why it worked so well in early UFCs against stand up fighters who were not use to it, their balance was to high and they were coming foward. You should be able to absorb there force, just like using a negative redirecting tan sau against a hook as opposed to using a bill sau( put your hips in to it) and sink.
Anyone can do a bil jee i agree, but the reason you dont learn the bil jee form early in your training is cause you need the basics to develop whiping energy and correct hip power, which i know hip power is negated if someone has the mount but you still have elbow force to create power(or should have).
When a right cross if performed correctly(as taught by a boxing instructor not a martial artist) you pivote your rear foot and throw your shoulder in to it, you have to to get power cause you get very little elbow force and no wrist snap( hence the beauty of a wc punch) it isn’t a straight punch or it would be called that instead of a CROSS.
For other take down defence ie hip throw the same defence will work just lower your center of gravity and it will be very hard for them to throw you.
You should know how to sink from the A stance, and to apply it with hip power learnt from the turning at the start of the chum kiu twisting and sinking into the ground like a cork screw.
but like you said each to their own, and what works for me mightnt work for you and vise versa.
what works for me mightnt work for you and vise versa
That’s fair enough.
BTW, with regard to straight punch and cross, you might find Jack Dempsey’s “Championship Fighting” interesting. IMO there are many similarities between his punching approach (using vertical fists) and TWC. The book’s out of print, but it is interesting if you can find it.
Plenty of standup strikers have sprawled, stood back up and knocked the hell out of grapplers in MMA competition so it’s not JUST a grapplers response.
I agree. The sprawl mightn’t leave you in a position to run, but one possible alternative, that of getting taken down and ending up in bottom position, is a lot less mobile still. We apparently strongly disagree on the likelihood of that if other approaches are attempted.
In any case, sprawl properly, you are on top of the guy and he is doing a face plant underneath you. You can jump up and soccerball kick him, you’re in a great position to knee him in the head or ribs, or apply a variety of blows before getting up and beating feet.
If you escape the first takedown, you don’t want HIM getting up again. The method I discuss allows you to beat the takedown and control him, so you end up in a BETTER position to strike him with those “supreme at infighting range” WC strikes from than you would taking pot shots from out of contact range.
I thought WC strategy involved attaining contact, then moving to greater control while striking. I would say the sprawl fits perfectly into that if the guy is trying to grab your legs.
Neutral stance (which no one with any sense fights from anyway) makes one vulnerable to double leg attacks. Front stance avoids this, but instead makes you potentially open to single leg attacks. Stance alone does not a takedown defence make (or a striking defense for that matter).
I think it’s a bit unfair to group those chinese martial arts together and basically try and say they are crap.
From my perspective of the UFC events, all strikers were coming second best to grapplers. As I recall there was a professional boxer who entered and lost to someone with grappling skills. So it’s not like chinese martial arts are deseased or anything.
There are a lot of factors behind why strikers didn’t do so well in those events.
- I believe that the martial art world on the whole had little idea of how effective grappling is. These strikers were going into the ring with no grappling experience. I remember how much of an eye opener the UFC was for me.
Second, I believe some question can be put on how professional the strikers were who entered these events. Had they entered these type of events many times before? Because the guys who were consistently coming out on top certainly had. Thoses being guys like Shamrock and Rickson. I also believe for them MA was their career and their source of income. In contrast to many of the strikers who entered the event who belonged to a martial art club of some sort and were holding down full time jobs.
Third, grapplers knew that they better know the stand up game comes before the grappling game, so they aren’t strangers to stand up either. In contrast to many of the strikers who were strangers to grappling.
So if you took a chinese martial artists/strikers from the early UFC days and had them train full time, train them proffesionally for the event, ensure that they also spent a large portion of their training on grapplin then you may have seen different results from them.
I also beleive that the eye gouging arguement is bullox.
Not if you are doing it right. You want to completely smother your opponent’s space. When I have you in the ideal side mount, my head is smothered against your body and your arms are wrapped up. If I am on top of you (mount) and you extend your arm to eye gouge, strike, etc. you WILL get arm barred. If you have someone in your guard, punching isn’t that effective - however, he can VERY effectively punch you. on the bottom, you would be better served by sweeping him or going for submissions.
That was my impression of the Grapplers response, so thank you Seven for confirming it. They have there ways of doing things and I’m sure they have thought about getting eye gouged and so forth. Like Seven said, “They want to completely smother your space”, this is also a observation I have noticed, the idea being to make it hard for you to move and/or strike them while they sinch down on you. The counter would be to make space before they sinch it in, and apply it at the appropiate time and space.
James
that merely changes the takedown angle. Change to a single leg and you will still take him down.
Anyone can do a bil jee i agree, but the reason you dont learn the bil jee form early in your training is cause you need the basics to develop whiping energy and correct hip power, which i know hip power is negated if someone has the mount but you still have elbow force to create power(or should have).[/auote]
when you are mounted, you are at a severe reach disadvantage. you will only have access to his midsection, and enxtending to strike it will result in your arm getting locked.
[quote]When a right cross if performed correctly(as taught by a boxing instructor not a martial artist)
boxing is a martial sport AND a martial art, IMO, but I digress…
you pivote your rear foot and throw your shoulder in to it, you have to to get power cause you get very little elbow force and no wrist snap( hence the beauty of a wc punch) it isn’t a straight punch or it would be called that instead of a CROSS.
That is wrong. I was taught to snap the wrist. Also, let’s not forget the other name… THE STRAIGHT RIGHT…
For other take down defence ie hip throw the same defence will work just lower your center of gravity and it will be very hard for them to throw you.
You should know how to sink from the A stance, and to apply it with hip power learnt from the turning at the start of the chum kiu twisting and sinking into the ground like a cork screw.
Then you open yourself for something else. Remember, an experienced thrower will throw in combinations, the same way a striker strikes in combos. When you sink - especially if you split your legs, you become VERY sesceptible to things like o uchi gari - the major outer reap.
The counter would be to escape - that’s where grappling knowledge comes in. Instead of strying to strike before the space is closed - anything can happen - what if you miss the strike? Now you are done. While you have the space, escape, THEN worry about the counter. A prime rule of grappling is position before submission.
Very true. The idea as I understand our counters, is to also move out of the space or direction of the grapplers force while controling their balance and center of gravity. We have a saying, never force someone to the ground but lead them, which means that while you are leading them down you need to have superior balance and stability, while maintaining mobility (this takes practice and cannot just be applied when the concept is conceptually understood). When that control is in place, the strikes can happen, in places not allowed in MMA competitions.
Your prime rule is similar in my WC school also, except it says “Position while attacking”
James
wasn’t china either. EVERY civilization has had some indigenous form orf wrestling. It is not chinese in origin by any means. Now, from a bjj perspective, that came from judo, which came from jujutsu - jujutsu originated in japan. People speculate it has chinese origin but it cannot be definitively proven.
“jujutsu originated in japan”
How come? Since almost everything else in Japanese culture has its origin China, why would martial arts make any difference? Traditionally, Chinese martial arts had three elements - kicking-punching, wrestling, and so called soft techniques (qin na or chin na). So anyone who wished to be a fighter had to master these three elemetns of combat, of which wrestling probably was the most ancient one (even chimpansees wrestle). At some point in history, when Chinese martial arts were carried further to east , Okinawa and Japan, these elements became separated. kicking-punching became the foundation of karate, wrestling became the foundation of judo, qin na the foundation of aikido. Jiujitsu was and is more or less a combination of all these elements - with empashis on throws and locks, thus being the closest to the original, i.e. old chinese fighting style. So we can say that the traditional chinese form of fighting survived in Japan over centuries while China was experiencing all kinds of trouble during which even the old ways of proper fighting were forgotten.
nope. Actually, if you ask some people, they will tell you that they can see more similarities in shuai chaio and sumo than you can in shuai chiao and jujutsu. As far as history can tell, jujutsu was it’s own development. There are stories that gempin showed three japanese men three locks and the three men expanded on them, creating the first style of jujutsu, but as stated, it can’t be proven.