so I watched a UFC fight last night...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Hey guys/gals-

So, last night I am at a bar with my roomate watching the UFC thing on Spike TV. You know that kind of behind the scenes show, it was the first time I actually watched it. There were these two guys on there that were training to fight each other (totally forgot the names sorry :frowning: ). So I decided to watch the fight, and I watched the whole thing, and I noticed that none of it really followed any wing chun principles at all. I was curious after watching this fight that if wing chun principles were applied, would it have changed the outcome of the fight.

For example I saw the following:

sloppy circular hooks
backing off and retreating
chasing limbs
over commitment

Now, I am not saying that wing chun principle is the only way to fight, obviously thats not the case. What I am curious about is would a good wing chun fighter survive against this type of stuff. I was watching the fight and noticed a lot of close quarters stuff happening, lots of clenches, etc. However, the fight never once went to the ground, they both stayed on their feet.

Now, a few times in the clench I saw many opportunities for peeling and covering elbows. Which can really hurt someone is done right. I saw many opportunities for one of the guys to rush in, like when their opponet gave them a circle kick. They could have rushed in and attacked right then.

A lot of the fight was both of them playing in each other’s kill zone. By this i mean at the end of their techniques. One concept of wing chun is to be inside and close to your opponet. A lot of times the sword analogy is used. Would you rather be out away from your opponet in stabbing range, or would you ranger be close next to the hilt, where they could not stab you. Not once was anyone sticking to an opponet. You don’t stand out at an arms length from your opponet, you are asking to get hit really hard that way. Instead you move in and dominate and control. At least that is how wing chun has been for me.

Now, with all these recent threads about wing chun for sport, or the 0 to 100, or the wing chun in the UFC, etc. I thought I would post this. I thought it was weird since there was no angle stepping, no centerline attacks, nothing really that wing chun stresses as a core.

These guys were good fighters don’t get me wrong. They both had MMA training with what looked like bjj and muay thai, or at least it looked that way to me.

Now, the whole time I watched this fight I was curious, that if I could work out with one of the guys for 6 months and train him some basic wing chun stuff, would it have made a difference. I am talking basic concepts, foot work, and centerline theory. Who knows if it would have made a difference, but I was still wandering if it would.

A lot of people say wing chun has a bad rep in the ring because its too dangerous of an art. Others claim that the art is designed for combat and it cannot be adapted to ring fighting rules. Some people say that gloves hinders our ability. After watching this fight on the UFC spike TV thing, I know that a good wing chun fighter very well could have won against either of those two guys fighting. It would just require someone young, and in shape to train wing chun for the ring. I am not volunteering by any means, full contact ring fighting is not for me, I like to be injury free, and I would like to be able to not have any permanent injuries.

There were so many occasions where wing chun elbows could be applied. Chi sao skills could have definately helped while in the clench. Centerline theory could have been applied everytime a circle kick (round house) was used. These things would require timing and proper training but I can easily see that they could be applied.

I do not really watch a lot of k-1, NHB, or UFC as of late, but after watching it last night I think I might start to watch it more often.

The purpose of this thread was just an observation I saw last night while watching a UFC match. People who say wing chun is not for the ring are wrong IMHO. During the fight I found myself saying stuff like, “Go IN!” “attack the center” “Cover your center” “Angle step that” so on and so forth. So, I saw tons of times where wing chun could have been used, and could have been used effectively.

However, I digress, if you did train wing chun for the ring you would have to do some physical conditioning outside of wing chun forms. You would have to be in pretty good shape is what I am saying. Other than that, I can totally see wing chun be really effective in the UFC. If done proper of course.

2

That was a good observation. Conditioning is the key. Like you said, most UFC guys use wild punches and very little standup technique. But since they are well conditioned they can get away with the sloppiness. Of sourse there are exceptions. Some NHB/UFC guys do have a good standup game. I personally know that WC can be used in full contact. Again, conditioning is the key. Also, anyone can be taken down so mat knowledge is essential for anyone going into UFC/NHB competitions.
PR

3

Weather the storm

good observations Gfist ,
there is one huge factor you need to consider pro. fighters or just very tough guys have the ability to weather the storm

so even if you are right [in position angle and so on ] it just doesn’t matter , they will break you with what would like on the outside as a bad or sloppy action

they can take what you dish out and give you back a much larger serving :wink:

look at chi sau [common reference point ] when you play with a big strong type that has no feeling just makes shapes and tries to run you over and dominate ,
you can play and get the right spot and clean line but then they guy will amp up get all stiff move as fast as he can like a drowning man clawing at the water , this is turbulent non responsive energy , but uncrispy raw power is hard to deal with .
sure with skill the tables can be turned
but not always :wink:

4

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of taking one of those guys and coaching them with some wing chun concepts. Taking hits and being able to dish it out for 5 min rounds (its what they were doing last night) takes it out of you. So, you have to be in great shape.

5

I don’t think they’re good “observations” at all; I think what gangsterfist is doing is what so many nonfighters do – looking at it from a theoretical POV of what he believes good fighting should look like. It’s all fine and dandy to “analyze” and “critique” these performances from the comfort of one’s barstool or armchair – oh, they did this and that poorly, they didn’t use WCK “principles” (which, of course, would only make them better), etc. The most laughable part was his suggestion that he could train them to be so much better! Why would real fighters want to train with someone that hasn’t proven he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag? Because of your theory? So that you can explain to them how it should work? LOL! My suggestion is that you actually go fight some NHB fighters and then tell us how “sloppy” these guys really are (maybe you’ll find out that this is the nature of fighting – it’s sloppy), how they just do all kinds of things poorly (maybe you’ll see that they’re not so poor after all and your “good” ideas just won’t work), etc. It’s always amazing that guys that couldn’t last 30 seconds in the ring know how it should be done.

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A lot of people say wing chun has a bad rep in the ring because its too dangerous of an art. Others claim that the art is designed for combat and it cannot be adapted to ring fighting rules. Some people say that gloves hinders our ability.

A lot of people say a lot of things. IMO WC don’t normally enter such events, as they would have to go through a cycle of rule familiarisation and a period of losing before they start winning, and many are not prepared to risk the mystique and aura of deadliness and invincibility with which they massage their egos.

After watching this fight on the UFC spike TV thing, I know that a good wing chun fighter very well could have won against either of those two guys fighting.

A lot of theory and what if.

I am not volunteering by any means, full contact ring fighting is not for me,

And funnily enough nor is anyone else.

There were so many occasions where wing chun elbows could be applied. Chi sao skills could have definately helped while in the clench. Centerline theory could have been applied everytime a circle kick (round house) was used. These things would require timing and proper training but I can easily see that they could be applied.

Apparently you’re wrong. They have never been applied in the ring, so empirically you have to conclude they can’t. otherwise they would have.

Good boxers will box. Good kickboxers will kickbox. The money is a lot better.

The UFC and Pride are IMO still mainly about grappling. You can complain about the lack of stand up technique, but many matches are showcases of excellent grappling technique well applied.

7

Thats cool you are allowed your own opinion just like I am allowed to have mine.

It’s all fine and dandy to “analyze” and “critique” these performances from the comfort of one’s barstool or armchair – oh, they did this and that poorly, they didn’t use WCK “principles” (which, of course, would only make them better), etc. The most laughable part was his suggestion that he could train them to be so much better! Why would real fighters want to train with someone that hasn’t proven he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag? Because of your theory? So that you can explain to them how it should work? LOL!

I was actually referring to someone who is a lot more skilled in wing chun train them. I am not a teacher, I am not a coach, and I am definately not a sifu. I have stated this many times in previous threads. I would never have any intention of training anyone to be a professional fighter. I never once specifically said I would train them personally. You just assumed I did, which looking back I can see why my wording may not have been the best.

My suggestion is that you actually go fight some NHB fighters and then tell us how “sloppy” these guys really are (maybe you’ll find out that this is the nature of fighting – it’s sloppy), how they just do all kinds of things poorly (maybe you’ll see that they’re not so poor after all and your “good” ideas just won’t work), etc. It’s always amazing that guys that couldn’t last 30 seconds in the ring know how it should be done.

I digress, I stated several times in this thread I was curious if it would have changed the outcome. Did I ever once say it would guarantee a win? No, I certainly did not. I also stated conditioning is a major part of ring fighting. I am not a professional ring fighter, nor do I ever want to be. I would like to keep my body injur free for as long as possible. Fighting in full contact fights seems to increase your chances of a permant injury. I don’t want to risk it. Its not for me. I stated that already.

So, please next time try to understand what some people are saying before you jump to conclusions. I simply commented that none of the fighting followed any wing chun concepts. It was an observation. If you think that wing chun concepts could have NOT worked with the situations I stated then please counter argue them. I very well could have been wrong, but try not to make this thread into a petty argument flame war.

Thanks,
GF

8

Anerlich-

This peticular fight actually never went to the ground. It went into the clench at lot, but never the ground.

However, yeah I agree with you most of those fights tend to end up rolling around on the ground.

9

Without even getting into gangsterfist’s first post on this thread…let me go another route.

Make it your business (G) to check out the fights of people like Fedor, Mirko Cro Cop, Antonio Nogueira, Randy Couture, or Chuck Lidell (both past and future fights)…to name a few of the very best…

and you WON’T see wild hook punches, sloppy wide open easy-to-counter kicks, backing up when it’s not necessary, etc.

Instead you’ll see some of the best fighting around today.

10

Watch Vitor Belfort’s KO over Silva in the UFC. That is the closest you will come to seeing WC principles applied successfully in an MMA event. The problem with “WC principles” is that they are too one dimensional and require too much muscular power to be applied successfully in the realm of MMA’s.

11

“The problem with “WC principles” is that they are too one dimensional and require too much muscular power to be applied successfully in the realm of MMA’s.” – Knifefighter

Hi Knifefighter,

Would you be willing to give one or two concrete examples of this problem? I’m having trouble wrapping my brain around exactly what you mean!

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…

13

Well if you get knocked out by a sloppy punch it’s still a knockout. :wink:
Terence, do you believe a WC fighter can be trained to be effective in NHB?
Also, since you train in WC what are the good things about it?
Phil

14

Ummmm. I have an observation.

Aren’t elbows illegal in UFC fights?

That was one of the main points in the first post. The comments about how it is obvious and you could charge in and do this and that? I agree with the guy saying the comments sound like someone who has not been fighting.

I think UFC is realistic fighting. People in real life are going to charge and try to take you to the ground if they can. There really aren’t that many people in real life who can stand up and exchange punches. I doubt if you will ever run into a really good kung fu guy on the street who is going to exchange technique with you like in a movie.

Realisticly, almost all fights are a bigger guy who knows he can win fighting with a weaker guy. The bigger guy throws a punch or a kick and the weaker guy gets beat up. I don’t know if I ever saw a real life fight on the street or anywhere that was an equal fight. It is always a bigger or stronger guy attacking a weaker person.

I seen a gang jump a homeless man. I seen a group of guys beat up their friend after a concert and leave him in the parking lot. That was weird. I seen big guys punching the heck out of little guys. The little guys can’t even fight back because of the size difference. I think the rest of the ones I saw were all of the clinch, headlock, roll around on the ground variety.

I think the closest I saw to anything like a real fight was 2 senior guys in class one day. They were doing chi sau for the hell of it and suddenly one of them staggers backward and stumbles into a wooden dummy. Everyone in class stops and looks. :wink: The guy that stumbled was ****ed and had a reptuation for a really bad attitude. I think he was a criminal. They chi sau again and he does the double hand push down thing? I forget the name. The other dude goes straight down into the floor. It was really impressive. Not just a stumble or a push backward but a slam straight into his belly right down into the floor.

Both doods were big. 220 or 230. 10 or 15 year students. I think I was right about the one guy being a criminal with a bad attitude. The other guy got up off the ground and was all polite and friendly afterwards. :wink: Kinda scared lookin.

The funniest part? The criminal guy was a haircutter. :wink: Better not be making fun of those beauticians. You never know.

15

One – among many – of the problems WCK people have looking at these sorts of fights is they have the WCK blinders on, for example believing their “theory” provides objective standards, such as that straight punches are inherently better (superior) than looping punches (is the front straight kick better than the wide thai kick?). My point, gangsterfist, is that you don’t have a clue about the reality of fighting (because you don’t fight) and so you have no real basis on which to judge – you’re basing your views solely on your (poorly conceived from hearsay) “theory” of fighting. That’s why I said to go do it yourself and then make the comments. You may see, for example, that many of those “mistakes” you saw were intentionally chosen by the fighters for a reason, and a good, or at least, defendable, reason. I could explain them to you but unless you have the experience, it wouldn’t do any good (you’d still have the blinders on). In theory so many things sound great; getting in the ring exposes most of it as BS.

Yes, Phil, IME WCK is a sound fighting method. My criticism isn’t of the method itself, but rather of most of it’s so-called “practitioners” and snake-oil salesmen who give the art a bad name.

16

Whew . . , thanks Terence. I was hoping to hear that from you. :slight_smile: I understand that not everyone’s goal is to be a fighter. But, I’ll have to agree with you that “we” need to do more contact/realistic training if “we” want to be effective fighters. Of course you need sound basics to achieve that goal.
Phil

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The problem with this is that again you make a great assumption just based on Gangsterfists post that he has NO experience in the relem of fighting. Another thing, if a theory is sound and logical, like the straight punch is superior than the looping round, then it is about application, to which some do not understand. If looping punches is what comes out of you when the heat is on then the indication is lack of training, not using what is needed when the time is right? I’ve seen the UFC show also, although not on a regular basis, but what I have seen of the fights are not of the highest caliber, not to say that Coture and Lidell are lousy trainer/coaches, just that the talent pool may not be the best. The are better fighters on “CONTENDER”, than on the UFC show. Plus, since when is the ring REALITY??

James

18

Mark wrote this:

“The problem with “WC principles” is that they are too one dimensional and require too much muscular power to be applied successfully in the realm of MMA’s.” – Knifefighter

Hi Knifefighter,

Would you be willing to give one or two concrete examples of this problem? I’m having trouble wrapping my brain around exactly what you mean!"

…

I’d like to give an answer to this - because Dale (Knifefighter) is definitely right about the Vitor Belfort knockout over Silva - IT IS the closest thing to Wing Chun ever displayed in a NHB event.

And Belfort did it by first connecting with a rear cross…followed by a classic straight blast chain punch attack while literally chasing Silva from one end of the Octagon to the other in a straight line.

And his elbows weren’t exactly “in” either - but they were closer to his rib area than a typical boxing punch.

But the chain punch attack IS very one dimensional, isn’t it? (Silva obviously never saw it before - so he got caught…As a wise man I know has often said: “If you’ve never seen it before - it’s probably going to hit you.”)

And by “too much muscular power” being required, I think that Dale means the short range straight line striking that Wing Chun almost exclusively employs is NOT conducive to knockout power (no matter how many threads to the contrary that people like Hendrik choose to post)…it requires quite a few “typical” wing chun vertical punches to land to cause a knockout against a big, strong opponent - whereas one or two solid rear crosses, hooks, or uppercuts can often do the job.

The “problem” with the wing chun vertical punch is that the hips and shoulders are not in play (torque) the way they are in boxing…so BIG muscular power would be required to knock somebody out…

Hence Vitor Belfort’s (wise) decision to use a more elbows flared out (and hip/shoulder torque rotation) method of delivering his version of wing chun punches.

Ah…but you say that the tailbone tucked in, power coming from the hips and center of the body will provide the extra power needed?..Too easy for your opponent to back (or circle) away from it and/or start to block or parry - another example of the one-dimensional aspect of wing chun attacks. (It’s almost exclusively short range in nature).

Phil Redmond: I have the Belfort/Silva fight on tape - I’ll send it to you…maybe you can post it on this forum?

As a final note: I AM an advocate of “typical” wing chun straight line striking - as long as other types of punches are also in the arsenal and used appropriately when an opening is there (ie.- Belfort “set up” the chain punch ending with a rear cross that connected and put his opponent on his heels…IME, the reverse can also happen - a few chain punches that land can set up an opportunity for a rear cross or hook punch fight-ender…or possibly the wing chun punches set up a kick, knees, elbows, a throw, a sweep, a takedown, an armlock, or a chokehold)…

but if you try to keep on straight line punching - a good opponent might easily recover - whereas completely changing the line of attack (and the method) has the element of surprise working for it.

And deception is a big part of successful fighting.

And one of the biggest elements required for deception is having various ranges, methods, strategies, and techniques to work with.

19

I have that tape also, and Vitor isn’t using the typical WC chain punch for sure, but like the others have said it is the closest thing yet in the NHB fights that resembles the WC movements in any way.

As for the above from Victor, I do have some disagreements. Firstly, you do not need any more “Muscular Power” than to just raise the arms and shoulder to perform the punch correctly. Like Victor said, the power of the boxer’s punches mainly comes from a hip/shoulder rotation, utilizing the torque of the body, problem is trying doing this movement and chasing and/or retreating at the same time while punching?? If you can accomplish this maybe you can throw 2 punches per step? A good WC man can throw double that effect. Also, the power comes from not a torque of the body but from the whole body moving forward, as we all know, so it is a different power generation than the boxers, but not less effective. When I teach a introductory class to people checking out the school, I show them the chain punch and emphasize four advantages of this motion:1) straight line movements are faster movements than the curve/round punches, so therefore you can be a slower puncher but make up for it in efficient straight line movement, 2)the WC punches are non-telegraphic, meaning there is no wind up like the torque movements of the boxer/karate guys due to the fact they are not square with their opponents, so the opponent has a harder time to see the punches coming, 3)the WC punches allow movement at the same time since no torque is involved, like mentioned above, 4)the WC punches allow easier interrupt ability and the ability to go from offense to defense faster than other ways of punching. These are just four reasons, there are many others. The analogy I like to use is like a push, the punch is like a push with a snap on the end. If you were to push a fridge in your kitchen from one side to the other, would you go on the side of the fridge, put your palm on it and torque your body to move it, or would you get behind it and put your palms close to your center and push it across? I would do the latter, as this way you are using the whole body to push the heavier fridge, this is the same principal for applying the punch. It may be one dimensional, but like the example of Vitor vs Silva proved, when someone hasn’t seen or experienced a movement like this, it will more than likely land on you, and in this case since WC chain punches are like a “Machine gun” action, once 1 is landed more are quickly on the way.

James

20

Guys don’t charge in without great care because they either want to avoid a takedown or walking into a punch. You have to remember that these guys are fairly evenly matched. I saw a good level of standup in the semi-final fight.

The elbow that won the fight might as well have been from Wing Chun or any other Asian MA. Very well done. I’m wondering if other people see the validation that this gives the art you practice. Not to mention the other lessons about hanging in there, that one blow can change the outcome of a fight.

The most Wing Chun-like fighter I have seen in the ring is Kostya Tszyu. No, it’s not wing chun, but it is crisp, highly technical fighting. Here’s someone who can beat a hook with a straight, has a mean left hook of his own, uses footwork to dominate an opponent. Who has deceptive hands and can switch which hand is forward without swapping his feet. Who has all the qualities of a fighter from physical preparedness, to great courage, to cerebral calculation. That’s the level of technique that I think is required to use wing chun or any other complex martial art effectively. Watch some of this man’s fights if you get a chance.